80s Ladies Romance
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80s Ladies Romance
The Wedding by Julie Garwood
A classic 90s historical romance. Topics include: marriages of convenience, emotionally stunted heroes, and “not like other girl” heroines.
So this is the holiday edition, which means it's a mess because we are getting ready for Christmas like everybody else. And we're talking and well, I'm drinking like in my where I come from. Well, it's 11 o'clock. It's around 11. It's in the morning, 11-ish in Phoenix. And in my house in New York, when I was a kid, my dad would be drinking something by now. So in honor of my family, I'm having a Sandra Lee ratio of Frangelico and coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00:Which is cold now. Is it Sandra Lee? Who is the cooking show lady that was like the massive alcoholic?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I don't know. I mean, I know who Sandra Lee is, but I don't know. I know
SPEAKER_00:because I know there's a cookie. There's like a baked goods. And then I don't know if it's a similar name. But anyway, she makes hilarious videos about this and unintentionally hilarious. But anyway, we are talking about So The Wedding by Julie Garwood. And I didn't read this back in the day. I just picked it up, you know, not too long ago at a Goodwill. And I did like it overall. And I was surprised. I didn't expect to. I was just going to give it a chance because I was bored. And it's a, I don't know, when was it published? Julie Garwood, I was like more, I had a little select group of Avon authors that I read and she wasn't one of them. But this was written... Was it 19? Well, it was published in 96. Wow. It wasn't even that vintage. Anyway, it's two books. So there's the bride and the wedding and they're both pretty much the same format. But where it's, of course, it's a marriage of convenience between a Scottish guy and an English girl for some reason. Scottish Highlander. And this one I actually like better. I like the second one better. I just think the characters are more, the guys, they're more engaging. And I didn't expect to like it because I typically do not like the obtuse hero, especially when they're like sexually obtuse. And I mean, I hate that, but this one is, It was kind of cute because he wasn't really... I don't know if you thought so. Do you think he was really obtuse sexually? Because he kind of seemed like he knew what he was doing, but he was just kind of being kind of douchey in the beginning. But the author was making it... But Garwood was kind of making it a purposeful point. She's kind of like making fun of the fact that he was going to be this Neanderthal man. But he always... Every time they interacted, he kind of caved immediately. So it was kind of like a joke. that he was not gonna be this Neanderthal man? I
SPEAKER_01:mean, I don't know. I thought like emotionally he was completely stunted. I don't know if I thought that sexually he was stunted. He seemed to have plenty of experience with that and no trouble knowing what to do, but he had like zero emotional range. And in fact, I get that he had like, you know, his mom abandoned them and his dad died early and all that stuff, but really he had such little emotional intelligence that I was like, were you raised by wolves? Are you a feral person? So that wasn't my take.
SPEAKER_00:And also the Brianna, the heroine, she was almost too much. I couldn't decide if she was too much because she was like ridiculously like Mother Teresa for a lot of it. And it's like no one, no human person is going to be that kind in that face of that treatment.
SPEAKER_01:The problem I had with her, and it's interesting because I feel like you see this more in modern day romances, was... You know, in modern day romances, I feel like you see a lot of like the quirky girl. I'm not like other girls, I'm quirky. And I felt like that's what they were trying to make. Brenna's not like other girls. She's like flippity jibbitin. She forgets things, but she stands up and she's strong and not afraid. And it just, it got annoying after a while. Cause I did, I felt like they were trying to be like, she's not like other girls. And, and
SPEAKER_00:that's been said, I noticed it. I look, always look at comments online and good reads about these books. And a lot of people have said, you know, she's like ridiculously perfect to her and the other, the woman in the other book, the bread, they both like can do everything
SPEAKER_02:right.
SPEAKER_00:Like to a ridiculous degree, like in the other one, she actually like stands up on the horseback galloping and can like shoot a bow and arrow bullseye and also do all this other stuff around the house.
SPEAKER_01:And while she's so in touch with her feelings about her husband and things like that, she is so dumb that she does not recognize the obvious manipulation of the stepmother. Like, how can you be so smart and intuitive about, oh, well, I know Connor's pushing me away, but this is why he's pushing me away. I know this. But she is... not a moment crosses her mind that this old lady has it out for her. You know,
SPEAKER_00:it's too bad because I liked a lot. It had the bones of a really interesting story.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And it was funny. I liked that. It was funny.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That was what saved it from his, from him being too annoying with his obtuseness and his Neanderthal attitude, because it was pretty funny. I wish I wouldn't have to pull out some of the, like some of the things he said were hilarious. Like in the beginning, when he's, when he, kidnaps her and they're traveling to Scotland and she's like, I need comfort. And he goes, he'll say things like, okay, I will comfort you now. Right. And I love that because it's almost like I was to think of like an autistic, you know, it's almost autistic in the way he answers her. Most of the books from this period, the historical novels, there's a prologue that sets up the hero's entire personality problem and this one is revenge like his father and his land castle is all like attacked and just and just his father's killed and on his death so this the prologue connor the hero is 10 and his father and so the whole plot is based on connor's like revenge quest and his marriage to brenna is part of it but so he's 10 now and his father's dying and And as he's dying, he says things like his legacy. He said, do you burn with the fever for revenge? And let's see, watch me die and learn how to live as a warrior. And I didn't realize this because it blows the whole story for me now because I skimmed, you know, the boring parts too. And I should, I got to go back and read it because I didn't realize until just now that he warns Connor about the villainous, his second wife. What's her name? Euphemia? He warns her. When he's dying, he said, Connor's like, should I, you know, tell her about this, the trade? You know, they're worried about a traitor. And he's like, no, you can't trust her and you can't trust women. Right. And it's like, and so knowing that now really kills the whole problem that occurs later. Right. But yeah, so we were talking about Brenna, how she's so Mary Poppins and Mother Teresa, really. And Until this mother-in-law, she's like a stepmother-in-law for Connor. And she shows up like halfway through the, you know, in the middle of things and like just installs herself in their house, in their castle. And she's a major cunt to Brenna.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_00:Brenna just takes it and doesn't think anything, doesn't understand. She thinks that she owes, she knows she's being a bitch, but she thinks that it's her duty for Connor's sake to, you know, Tolerate it, which is insane because she's really, really, really crazy mean.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And she has so little self-confidence in her ability to be a good wife and that Connor likes her that the woman is able to easily manipulate her by basically being like, oh, yeah, your husband's so embarrassed by you. You know, gosh. And Brenna has so little self-confidence that she can make him happy that she falls for it. you know? Well,
SPEAKER_00:also who doesn't, I mean, it's the oldest, it's oldest time. It's like the wife complaining about the mother. She doesn't, she and her whole thing, this whole problem is because she doesn't say anything to Connor. Yes. She has to keep from, it's like, what's that?
SPEAKER_01:I feel like there's so much of that. And that is a super annoying trope to me in anything. I mean, and I, I feel like nowadays it's a little bit It's not used as much, but it wasn't just in novels. I mean, I watched a lot of soap operas and I think about All the times that you're like, oh, I see exactly where this is going. He's going to walk in and he's going to misunderstand what's going on instead of like a normal person being like, what's going on? He's just going to storm off. And, you know, and I feel like there was a lot of that in this. Like, oh, my God. The
SPEAKER_00:only time that works is if you have a reason, like you're purposely keeping something because you want something else. You know, I mean, you're. you're withholding information to achieve another goal. Right. That's a different thing, but, and that would be better because then you've got so much more story potential there. It's like, you know, how could you do this to me kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:We could have shaved off like 200 pages if they had been
SPEAKER_00:better communicators. Right. And it really bothered me in, at the end where the big problem at the end. Yeah. Where this guy, the villain that attacks. So that's, By the end of the, it's like the last third of the book. And this guy attacks Brenna while Connor is away. And it's not described. It's like, there's no scene. It's just like, it's just alluded to. And it's like so frustrating because that should be a whole chapter. I mean, it should be a scene where he's. you know, stalking her to her room and then attacks her and he falls out the window. I mean, that should be a scene. Right. He's barely even, he's just mentioned off page for most of the time. He has like two lines of dialogue with her, the whole book, but yet he's the major cause of this. And
SPEAKER_01:yeah. And that's what I think, you know, they spent like, I listened to the audio book and after they went on and on and on and on about Brenna learning to ride the horse bareback and all the description and how she just befuddled his two servants, which can we not name them? They were like Crispin and Clover. Like they were really, I don't know. It was Crispin and something. Oh, it was like Crispin and Griffin or something. But I was like, yeah, I feel like I'm reading. Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it was just enough to tease like they should be good, interesting characters, but it's like either make them a part of the plot because they were interesting people, but they were just not enough to, it's either don't name them or give us more of them. And also don't give them names that are super similar so I can tell which one servant from the next.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Although what is it? Quinlan? I did. I was disappointed that Quinlan was the coolest character in the story and he should have had Connors like friend, his second. Oh, right, right, right. Should have had his own book. And I, I'm guessing that the Julie Garwood thought he was too well adjusted, like to have his own story, but I think it would have been a really great, because he was the one, every time Connor acted like a doofus, he was like, he was there telling him, I think Brianna wants this from you or needs this. Maybe you should be doing this right now. Yeah. Like being his adult brain. Right. And it was kind of sad, but funny also.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and you know, some of it is, it's hard for me. Obviously I know that this is historical and obviously women, you know, had a much different role. You know, it's very, very, very patriarchal and all that type of stuff. But it just got super, in the beginning, I feel like there was a lot of, woman, why are you talking? You're supposed to only think about me. You're not even allowed to think about your family. I know that it was of its time. So I get it. I get that it was historically accurate. I get that we're taking ourselves out of it. It was hard for me to turn off my modern sensibilities and not just be annoyed at the fact that she was just basically property for such a long time.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I really like some of the, it's one reason why I really like more of the 70s, 80s books more because they don't tiptoe around this shit. They just like put it out there. The guy is just says and does things. As he is. And then they deal with the fallout. They're not they don't make it like a I don't know. I think they just they end up doing a worse job of it by trying to politicize it now and make it be like, oh, you shouldn't make her, you know, try and make her stand up for herself. But she really. Right. Right. And I liked it better when they were just like, this is who they are. This is the story. And then they redeem themselves by the end of the book. But they weren't like half asked about it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Never works. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, and plus, but it was kind of brutal. I mean, they would, there's always a kidnapping or a capture. True. But in those books, they would just be like, all right, I'm taking you to my room now. This is happening. Right. And then there was the fallout. There wasn't like now, now they're just like, he doesn't do it. He's like, I want you to respect me. But they still want him to be an asshole. And it's like, that doesn't work. You have to have him be the asshole. You can't just say he's the dark, Alpha, and then have him be a Harlequin guy. I
SPEAKER_01:don't know, though, because, I mean, isn't that the appeal of the dark? Well, maybe not the appeal, but one of the appeals of the dark guy is that the love of a good woman can turn his heart. You know, everyone thinks about... Because, you know, if you're that good woman who turned the asshole good, that must mean you're freaking amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Now it's always insta, you know, insta. In the old days, it did not. The attraction may have been instant, but it was there was a lot of other stuff. They did not instantly fall in love. Yes. And that was better. I mean, they got their event, you know, through the story. they may have done things like sex and stuff in the meantime, but it was troubled because they weren't there yet emotionally. Right. So that was a story, but now it's like instantly there's no one else for them, but the other person, even though they're trying to make this, you can't have that tension happening. Right. With that. When you start with that. I mean, it's one thing if it's a, that's the point. It's a short little novella, but that's not what these, some of these are. True. I agree. But in this one, I just, dad, when I went back and read the prologue, some of the things that dad is saying, this 10 year old was killing me. Watch me die and learn how to be a warrior. Right. Old boy. Don't trust women. They're bitches.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah. I was like, good job, dad.
SPEAKER_00:And meanwhile, Brenna, who should have daddy issues, doesn't. She's just like her dad. I mean, he leaves her in a field, you know, like twice. Well, I
SPEAKER_01:mean, you know, she's one of eight.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right. He forgot to count. He just like wakes up one day and is like, oh, you're going to marry a stranger in another country today. Bye. Right. She's like, oh, he means well. He's my dad. He's a good man. Right. Well, I'm really weird the way he was like described as a major asshole. But she talks about him like he's this great dad. I
SPEAKER_01:mean, I think isn't a lot of that like they don't know any better. You know,
SPEAKER_00:and Connor's like, are you high? Yeah. That was one thing I did love that they had a lot of good digs about the English from the Scottish. Yeah. Yeah. And some good jokes about that. That's true. And it was kind of funny the way Connor was just, it was annoying because he was too clueless, but it was also funny where he's like attempting to give her what she wants to tell him what she, she's like, I shouldn't have to tell him this, but I'm going to go ahead and tell him this so we can have a good marriage. And he's like, like trying to like give her what she wants, like, but not understanding at all why she wants it. Exactly. And it's just, I don't know, but he did kind of, and it should, again, it was too stunted at the end where he comes back and he's, you know, horrified and upset that she's beat up and he should have been there. And that should have been more extended and detailed too, because it kind of was, they made up too quick there. Yeah. Because he should have had to suffer more for being so stupid.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, but what were her choices? You know, her sister kind of went over with her life. You can't go home. You're like married to this guy and you want to have kids, don't you? So, you know, I think that she kind of ended up in the whole like, do you want to be happy or do you want to be right? You know, and I think she chose happy. I
SPEAKER_00:did like this. I know. I just wanted when he came back and he was holding her and, you know, he was so crushed that he left her and that happened. I just would have liked to see more of his thoughts there. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, being so beating himself up a little bit more as he should have. But he did. I mean, he did. And that was kind of nice where they go and have that standoff at the end. Right. It would have been good to have a book between Quinlan and her sister because that looked like a good match. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:that's true. Who knows? Maybe Garwood wanted it and the publisher said no.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, he was the best character in the whole book. He wasn't there nearly enough. Yeah, but I should have not have skimmed as much as I did. But I like the wedding. So he picks her. So there's the prologue where it sets up Connor's his problem. Right. His whole thing is they have to find this traitor, which should be obvious to everybody, but isn't. And then they introduce her and they have. Yeah, I skipped the whole part. Her prologue was she meets him. I don't understand this age. I didn't get the math. Because she was like five. No,
SPEAKER_01:she said she was older. He thought she was because he says, yeah, I totally remember me. This is towards the end. He says, I totally remember meeting you. You were like the same age as my niece, who's like five. She's like, no, no, no. I was actually way older than that. I think she says she was like 12.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, OK. No, OK. No, no. She was way younger because they were talking about her like she was a toddler. They were. But what 12 year old wouldn't know? I mean, he picked her up. she was hiding pigs under her skirt or something. And he picked her
SPEAKER_01:up. I don't know. Maybe it's a consistency thing then, but he definitely says you couldn't have been much older than grace. And she's like five. He wouldn't pick up a 12 year old. I mean, he wouldn't think so. And she's like, no, I was much older. So I don't know. I mean, I
SPEAKER_00:don't know how this happened in like the 11 hundreds of 1200, whenever this was, but she sent him by courier, like three invitations to marry her. Somehow as a child,
SPEAKER_01:she asked him in person that one time. Right.
SPEAKER_00:But then there was a couple of times after that, because it said she sent him by mail a couple of other requests to marry her. I don't know how that happens, but she did. And yeah,
SPEAKER_01:basically, I mean, all that did was set it up. So why he would pick her out of all the people that it was like, oh, well, you asked me in the boat like here. You're my betrothed to my enemy. So I'm going to go ahead and screw this man over by taking his betrothed. And how I'm going to convince you to go along with it is coincidentally, you propose marriage to me as a child. So that's what I'm going to use to get you to say yes.
SPEAKER_00:And he didn't really that was just like to get her to be hopefully willing because he didn't really need to do anything to get her to say other than take her. Right. And then, so the wedding was kind of funny. Like, she drew out this comic scene of her, of Brenna, like, delaying the wedding for, like, an hour because she was so nervous. And all the guys just standing around letting her do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was a little long.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so, but then, so they, he picks her up in England, right? And they have to travel by horse, by land, to Scotland, right? Right. So they get married right away. And... Oh, that's the other thing. You know, she shows this sign of courage because she's the only one of courage. The men she's traveling with are cowards and she is the only one with courage and stands up to them. But then she completely turns into a doormat, you know, in Scotland. But anyway, so he marries her on the road and then he consummates it on the road. Like he just the first night thinks he's going to just bed down in the middle of camp. Oh, right. And she has to say, I think she wants you to like go down a little
SPEAKER_01:privacy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which is weird. I don't know. That seemed like I don't know who wouldn't want even a dumbass like him should expect to be alone for that. I would think it's not like. I
SPEAKER_01:don't know. I mean, maybe he's been sleeping with bar wenches and they don't care where it is. Like, who knows?
SPEAKER_00:So they do that and they actually have sex and it's fine. I guess not that bad for her. But she was only upset because he didn't comfort her afterwards or didn't give her compliments or something. Yeah, it was that he didn't compliment her. And he still didn't come around. And that's one of the times where I'm mad that she didn't... She should have walked off and drew them into some kind of skirmish or something for being such a jackass at that moment, I think.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I mean by, like, he just was so... I mean, I guess he was just used to being the laird and the boss and just did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. But I think the thing was like, he could show consideration of his men. He was not like a, he wasn't a sociopath. You know what I mean? He wasn't someone who could not put himself in the position of others. So the fact that he absolutely just was so dumb when it came to her was, I don't know. It just seemed exaggerated. And I sound like I didn't like this book. And actually, I did like this book. I probably give it like a B. I think it was probably at least 100 pages too long. And I think that in some ways, they were caricatures in an effort to not be like your typical Bodice Ripper characters. I think she went a little too far. But I do like the fact that she tried to create something different. Although, I feel like all those heroines, are feisty. Like where's the book about like the docile girl? Like, you know, I don't know. Maybe nobody wants to read that, but you know, they're all feisty. And in real life, there are plenty of complacent people. Although I get married
SPEAKER_00:too. I did not like the whole thing about leaving her horse and bags behind. That was so mean. I mean, to not even say anything to her about that. And then that was, I
SPEAKER_01:mean, it was like, you know, in modern day, we would be like, well, that's domestic violence. You are isolating her from her family, from her friends, from her belongings.
SPEAKER_00:And then she just accepts that she's upset for like a second. And like that, I mean, she should have given him a cold shoulder for like the rest of the trip. Again, I think that, I mean, that was
SPEAKER_01:devastating for her. That was like, would she have even, would it have even occurred to her to do that? Like, Well, good would it do. She was married to him. She had no agency. She's in a foreign country. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:but to not even be like, I'm not talking to you. Get away from me. I mean, like, I hate you. I mean, for like, I mean, for more than five minutes.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I'm thinking she was brought up to be, I mean, think of how crappy the mother-in-law was to her and she just sucked it up with a smile. I think she was probably raised to always be pleasant, to always swallow down. I mean, in some ways she reminded me My grandmother was born in 1920, and she was the daughter of a Methodist minister. And she was really brought up to never acknowledge or experience negative emotions. And it screwed her up later in
SPEAKER_00:life. That's not humanly possible, I mean, to completely achieve that. I mean, it's just, there's no way. It's just
SPEAKER_01:impossible. But I mean, I think it's she did a real good job. She was very cheerful all the time. And I think she just shoved it down.
SPEAKER_00:My grandmother was she was kind of like tonight, like turn the other cheek. But I think she was genuine. But I don't know how she's like almost like too impossibly nice. Like my her in-laws family treated her like crap. And she was such an angelic person. And it's like I still don't. And it seemed genuine. It didn't seem like she was repressing anything. And I just I. I suppose it's possible for some people to be like that, but not me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I just I think especially, you know, she's part of a big family. She's been raised to be a wife. You know, it's not like she didn't have a mom there. She was raised to be a wife. She was yelled at when she was rolling around with pigs. And that's not ladylike things to do. So I think
SPEAKER_00:that I just don't understand how you don't feel inside like. Well, she maybe did. How do you just not be like, just rage? Just be like, just to not just even be waspish sometimes to somebody. I mean.
SPEAKER_01:Well, but you're talking about two different things. You just said you don't understand how she doesn't feel that. And then you said you don't understand how she's not waspish. I think it's quite possible. Brenna felt a lot of those things, but whether she didn't. I felt like she could act on those
SPEAKER_00:feelings. I mean, momentarily, not like, even if she was generally nice, sometimes it must erupt, right? It must get to be too much at some point.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it did, because that's why she would, you know, tell him what she was thinking. You know, that's why she would be like, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong. But then he got mad and she immediately backed down. Because, again, this is a domestic violence story, you know? Like, he's isolated her. He's made her completely dependent on him. He's told her, this is dangerous. This is dangerous land. The only one who can protect you is me. You have to wear my clothes to be protected. Well, that's when you stab
SPEAKER_00:him in his sleep.
SPEAKER_01:But then she's left with nothing. She's left in the highlands, you know? I mean, like I said, I agree with you. That's not the part of, like... Strangely enough, most of the time, you know, I'm the one who gets irritated by like the my modern sensibilities. That one didn't bother me because I'm just like, yeah, I mean, you know, what was she going to do?
SPEAKER_00:But I mean, it was I did overall like it. I mean, they were somehow she made I think the characters appealing enough where the irritating things weren't deal breakers. Yes, I
SPEAKER_01:agree.
SPEAKER_00:And they did seem to genuinely like each other. Yes. They recognized the good parts about each other despite the, I mean, they wanted to have a healthy relationship at the bottom, you know, behind everything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and he talked nice things about her. I mean, he was like, yeah, my wife's super smart. You know, she's like annoying, but she's real smart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it wasn't just she's so hot. Right. And so they admired their characters about each other. Yeah. But the plot holes were huge. Like the villain, it was just not shown at all. So
SPEAKER_01:I'm glad to hear you say that only because that was one of the times that I skipped ahead because I was running out of time. And suddenly, like, I was like, oh, he must have come back. Yeah, you didn't miss anything because it wasn't written. That's good. That's good because I thought I had missed it and I was just having to, like, figure it out from context clues. But good to know that everybody missed it because it didn't occur. And
SPEAKER_00:it really takes away from that moment. You know, that should have been its own chapter where this guy comes to her door and traps her in a room and they have this struggle. Right. And, I mean, he... Falls out the window because she stabs him accidentally trying to save herself. Right. But she did. She was kind of realistically hysterical about it. You know, she was like, oh, my God. You know, she was kind of not in her right mind about it. Like, oh, no, my no. Connor's going to be upset with me because I killed his brother. And, you know, it's like she was irrational because she was in shock.
SPEAKER_01:Although let's also go back to like where I'm like, how could he be so smart and so dumb? So. She wants to tell Connor and she feels like she should tell Connor like out of respect because it's his half-brother or step-brother or whatever. And Connor, you know, is busy and whatever. She has a couple opportunities. I want to say the maid, her good maid, asks her a question and then either his best friend or the other soldier.
SPEAKER_00:The other guard directly asks her.
SPEAKER_01:Like, why are you hurting you? What's going on? Yeah, we noticed that you have a knife at all times, that you're super jumpy. She says, no, I'm not going to tell any of those people. I'm going to tell the sexual abuser's mother. Really? And you were surprised. I mean, yes, the mom went way overboard when she was like, well, you should just give him what he wants. But like, are you for real now? She was going to be like, oh my gosh, that's terrible. My son is a total sexual abuser. Here, I will protect you. I mean, I was just like, you have... zero sense of like stranger danger or even like proximity danger.
SPEAKER_00:That's a too stupid to live kind of thing. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least you could have had her attempt to say something to somebody and be intercepted or be
SPEAKER_01:prevented.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Something. Or like, you know, she tries and they don't believe her. And so then that's why she doesn't want to tell anybody because she's like, nobody's going to believe me anyway.
SPEAKER_00:That to me seems like I wonder, is that like self-censorship in writing, you know, for political reasons? Like why? You can't be that bad because she's not that bad as a writer. Otherwise, I still I can't fathom why you would write it that way unless you're trying to avoid something for public opinion. I mean, it just seems like an obvious mistake that you could easily avoid in writing. I mean, especially for you. I mean, you're so absorbed in this. As a romance author, you're reading them. You know how these things... You should know instinctively something like that, I think. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I mean, again, it could also be like a word count thing. I mean, you know, why do you spend...
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it should just feel off as a writer, as somebody who loves romance and is immersed in these plots. I just can't... It should come up like, this isn't right. You know, this doesn't feel... Something's missing here. I
SPEAKER_01:don't know. Maybe they had to have something dumb to drive the conflict. You know what I mean? Like, how else are you going to get rid of, finally make him on her side and let her know that when push comes to shove, they'll choose Brenna over his... Vendetta, except he kind of didn't. He just kind of lucked into it. You know, he was like, oh, I'm going to go after the lady who said that her son should go ahead and rape my wife. And bonus, she's in cahoots with my mortal enemy. So like two for one,
SPEAKER_00:everybody's dead. And then it's like at the end, it was just the ending was really dissatisfying because like they finally find out who the traitor is. And they did. They should have had a gruesome death scene there. Yeah. And nothing happened there. It was, I mean, she died, but not, it was just like, again, pretty much off page. Yeah, I agree. So, but it was on the plus side, the characters like Connor, Brenna, Quinlan, they were, they were some great likable characters and the interactions or the, some funny dialogue. Yeah. Connor and Brenna, you know, mostly from Connor.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And I would say I liked that because it wasn't, overly flowery on the love. I also liked, I felt like the love scenes were described pretty well. Sometimes I joke with you that I think that romance writers have a word bank and they're only allowed to use those words from the word bank when they're describing love scenes. And I feel like Julie Garwood went outside the word bank. And that was good because there weren't those ones that I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so cringy. So I would say if I had to say pros, I did like the characters for the most part, even though I think that they were in times caricatures. I thought there were a lot of funny parts and that was nice. I thought that the love scenes were written pretty well. I like that. He didn't rape her. That was good. You know, considering the genre, that was a plus for me. You know, I do think it had kind of a good mystery slash villain. There were parts in it where I lagged. And then I want to say once I got going, once I got to like the halfway mark, then I really started to enjoy it. But the traveling to Scotland, and I understand that's to kind of help establish their relationship, but that just
SPEAKER_00:went on. And the forced proximity, you know. Yeah. Once he's home, he's like traveling all the time. Right. It just, it went on a lot, I thought. But yeah, I would almost wish you could redo that, you know, update it and just make it more what it just, If she redid it, it would be awesome. Like you said, the sex scenes, I think when they talk about what makes a good sex scene, it's somebody wrote about this and Greta, it's an erotica author wrote about this, Greta Christina. And she said, and I like what her little writing about it. She said, it's not just what they do or how they do it, but it's what it means to them. And if you convey that, like that's the whole scene, a sex scene. And so I think she kind of, she went a little beyond the seventies, eighties era of, it wasn't closed door completely, but it was a lot was alluded to. Like they didn't really get as graphic as they do now. So she got a little more graphic than they did in the old days, but she also put in how they felt about it, what it meant, you know, what, when it was happening. So it made it more interesting. It wasn't just like a, like a mechanical description. Right. I agree. And that's another reason why I like third person. I get so sick of first person nowadays that they realize I think it's lazy and And I think it's a lot of times results in just bad writing because you can't convey what you need to from the first person sometimes. And it's I just think it's way overused. I wish they'd get work in more third person POV. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I guess. I mean, you know, I tend to like the dual POVs and I don't mind if they're both first person. You know, I don't mind that as much. I guess you can have the dual POV in a third person also.
SPEAKER_00:You found me, though, that villain. She was so working. You're frustrating. Like she was like watching the Mexican telenovelas and where the mother gets to slap everybody and nobody slaps her. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Or she was not Lady Macbeth. But who's Hamlet's mom? She reminded me of Hamlet's mom.
SPEAKER_00:I just wish they could have had a scene where she fought back once, like even in private, where she like told her off or something. Right. You know. She never had a minute of satisfaction with that bitch. You know, it's just so frustrating. I know. So what else can we say about, so this holiday episode is Monica's baking her cookies now as we're talking. Yes. For her cookie business. And I can't wait to, I want your, do you want to talk about the, how did that come about the cookies that you just made? I had
SPEAKER_01:a lady who's having, she's a repeat client and she, has an annual Christmas party and she likes some of the cookies to be adult themed.
SPEAKER_00:So, so you made, so what are you calling these cookies? Are we going to have a euphemism for them or they just.
SPEAKER_01:Usually when the people ask for them, they ask for like, they'll just say, I want naughty cookies, you know, something like that. I mean, I did some, she was, hosting a bridal shower for someone else. And she was like, penises are fine. I was like, all right, you know. Hot cookies.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Did you, is there a mold for those or did you have to make that yourself?
SPEAKER_01:Oh no, there's all kinds of cookie cutters for that. I have one, but there's so many different ones. And there's ones that are very explicit. I kind of picked something that's, you know, middle of the road. So this, you know, I mean, I
SPEAKER_00:guess if someone- I thought they were pretty cool. I saw, I like it. Thanks. So, and how did you get the flesh tone? Oh, I
SPEAKER_01:just, there's a website that there's actually this really good website where this lady took the time to mix up like 20 different skin tones. And then she put the color formula down for...
SPEAKER_00:Oh, and you can put the veins on them and everything. That's going to be next level.
UNKNOWN:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, like I said, people do that. People put all kinds of things. But I
SPEAKER_00:think you should put the romance hero name. We should name them for our favorite books. That's so funny. I will take an order of those. There you go. Is she having just like a personal party? Like, is this for a party? Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:it was this past weekend. I don't know. She throws a lot of parties. She used to have this really big Galentine's party. And last year, I believe, was the last year she had it. And I went to that and she had like fire dancers and male models dressed up as kind of angels, almost like Victoria's Secret angel type garb. Where did she have this party? At her
SPEAKER_00:house. What? She had fire dancers at her house?
SPEAKER_01:In her backyard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Was this in North Scottsdale?
SPEAKER_01:No. No. No, I don't feel comfortable saying where it is to protect the identity of the client. But yeah, so she's a great lady. She likes to entertain. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:well, I'd like an invite. Let her know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I love it because she usually says to me like...
SPEAKER_00:That sounds like a fun party.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, she usually says to me like, hey, I need some cookies for this type of party. It's a Christmas party. Make a few of them naughty and go wild. She gives me pretty much... Complete creative control. So that's great. That totally frees me up. And usually in that case, people will end up getting more designs. If you tell me that you've got, you know, that I've got complete creative control, I've got so many things I want to do. You'll probably get a lot more cookies or not more cookies, but more different cookies and more intricate cookies than if you're like, okay, I want this, this, this, and this. Then I pretty much stick to that.
UNKNOWN:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Well, as you're eating these cookies, I mean, oh, so I wanted to pick a quote. I always like to pick, some of these Goodread quotes are just hilarious, but I didn't grab one for this book, but I did want to shout out to the person who rated Shadow's Claim by Cressley Cole one star. He goes, fuck you, Bettina. You don't deserve Trahan. Five stars for Trahan and zero stars for Bettina, stupid bitch. Wow. And that's basically true. That is an accurate review of that book, but I don't know that book. I don't know if we'll ever get to read. We should talk about it sometime because that is another book where I think it had so much potential and there was a lot of good things about it, but there was a couple of things that I just killed it for me. And the heroin was, was the main one. Oh yeah. And it's too bad because it could have been so great. But overall, the bride, the wedding was better than the bride. Only because I didn't like, I just thought the, in the bride, the heroine was just ridiculous. Too accomplished at everything to an annoying degree. And the hero was not that likable. I mean, he wasn't that, I wanted him to be more appealing than he was. But he wasn't as clueless like Connor is.
SPEAKER_01:He was... It's his cousin, Alex, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:His brother, his adoptive brother, his brother by loyalty.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, I mean, like I haven't read that book, but I could, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. He's like that in his own book and he never changes. It's not that great. I mean, it could have been great. That's a book where if you're going to make a hero with that personality, I want to see some dumb con, non-con. I want to see some old school. Yeah. Hero is some old school alpha type. Cause that's, you can't give him that personality and have him act with today's politics. It doesn't work. Right. Right. So he just was, I don't know. There was some moments where he was okay, but, but in, in the hero, the heroine in that one was too over the top. Like she was good at everything. She was like an Olympic athlete, supermodel, homemaker, Martha Stewart. Right. Or the 11th, 12th century. You know, it was just ridiculous. And she's a healer. But in this one, so this one is better because even though he was, you know, the kind of a doofus, he was also funny. Yeah. And he had a good heart. And so he, you know, he acted like he was going to be this. He was trying to be this sexist doofus jackass, but he kept failing and inadvertently being more and more of a good guy. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Like an accidental good guy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And the things, their dialogue was funny in a lot of places, like kind of things he said was, she did a good job with the dialogue for him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think that that is, maybe it's easier when the guy isn't as emotional and kind of a jerk. I mean, one thing that I struggle with, with modern contemporary romances is when they write dialogue or especially internal monologues for a man. And I go, No, dude, I have ever met talks like that. And I don't think they think like that. And it really, you know, kind of takes you out. And maybe in this case, it was easier because he didn't have a whole lot of, you know, mushy thoughts and stuff like that. So she was
SPEAKER_00:able to write. Next time you come across that in the book you read, ask Jason what he would think in that situation.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny. So I had him recently read a contemporary romance that I thought did.
SPEAKER_00:You read the whole thing or just a part of
SPEAKER_01:it? He's read multiple because it's a series. Yes, he liked it enough. He was willing to read the series. But I told him, I said, I think, I think this one seems to get male dialogue and kind of POV. right as well as I can know not being male, you know? And I said, so I'm going to get you this book. And I got it for him. And after about maybe a month, I said, hey, have you started that book? He was like, oh yeah, I'm already on book two and I have book three on order.
SPEAKER_00:Wait, now is he into audio too?
SPEAKER_01:No, he likes to read. Okay, good. So he read the books. All right. I have listened to almost all of them. Because it makes a difference, I think,
SPEAKER_00:you know, in your own head versus what you hear somebody, a narrator contributing. I think it's a different experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, I agree. And I think I had listened to those books, I think. I don't think, maybe I read the first one, but then I listened to the other ones just because from a time standpoint, You know, I can multitask. I can listen to an audio book and be mobile and do so many other things. But no, he read the books.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. And so what did he say about the male perspective?
SPEAKER_01:He thought it was good. He thought it was written pretty well. He thought that the dialogue was pretty good. He thought that the characters were really well drawn. He said there were... I think he's finally finished the series. I haven't actually finished the series. I was like, save those on your Kindle and share them with me. Well,
SPEAKER_00:that's a good marriage, guys, when you can have a husband who will read your romance novels with you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I want one who will write one with me. I'll take that relationship.
SPEAKER_01:So,
SPEAKER_00:anyhow. Well, it's an awesome series.
SPEAKER_01:It is called the bromance book club. I think the authors
SPEAKER_00:name is that one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Lissa K Adams. That's the author's name, but they're definitely not in our genre. So that's just an offshoot. They're 100% contemporary.
SPEAKER_00:No, I want to know. I want the dude perspective on the old school ones. And by the way, anyone listening, stop spelling it with a K. I barking hate that. It's, Just spell it normally. I think it's like a passive aggressive dig. Honestly, I feel like a lot of times I see online people when they say use the term old school, they spell it S-K-O-O-L. Oh, makes me crazy. I
SPEAKER_01:think that's that's
SPEAKER_00:it.
SPEAKER_01:That's a cultural thing that came from like I hate it. And I want to use. Well, I think it's being applied to a different area. Like it applied to music and DJs and a particular.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it comes across to me as disrespect.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's, that's what I mean is people have taken a term out of context and they're applying it to other things.
SPEAKER_00:And it just makes you look illiterate too. And I also, I put it up there. It's right along with this. I know, I think there's an algorithm or some reason, but I still, I think it needs to stop of people can't say words now without putting stars in it and like taking lead. They can't say simple, basic words like sex or rape or any, you know, they take the...
SPEAKER_01:That's because there's so much AI that will shut you out. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, I mean, that's... And
SPEAKER_00:then it's alive. It's fucking dead, okay? They killed, they were murdered. It's not unalive. It's not even funny anymore, they say it so much. It's like...
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's unalive started... We're getting off topic here. Unalive started as a synonym for suicide because, again, these posts are getting taken down by AI and then... And like, then you'll be disabled for a while.
SPEAKER_00:Well, not here. We are going to use real words here. Like grownups who have had an English, had an education in English.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Just know that don't, we can't put them in the, don't put them in the description or else they'll get edited out. We won't come up in algorithms. But yeah, that's why people specifically use those things is so it doesn't get flagged and taken down.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I guess we're, Running out of time here for today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. We probably should wrap up. I feel like we've, you know, we covered
SPEAKER_00:more. We could say about overall this book. I think we give it a B or B plus.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds about right.
SPEAKER_00:It was good. There were some flaws that were significant, but the good things were good enough that it's, we still like it. Yeah. Connor was okay. He's not a sexually inept doofus. Yeah. But
SPEAKER_01:he's, he's not going to be a book boyfriend of mine.
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean, if he if we could somehow combine Connor with Alec from the previous book, that would have been more ideal. Yeah. But like there was too much of a split that you could take this the best qualities from both of them. That would have been a book boyfriend. Right. All right. Well, so the next time at some point, I guess we're going to start talking about lace. I think
SPEAKER_01:so. So
SPEAKER_00:we're going to take a break from the historical Bodice River. Yes. But this still is vintage because it was lace.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Came out in the 80s. So you're 80s ladies talking about an 80s book.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Well, have fun with your penis cookies. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Enjoy. All right. See you next time. See ya. Bye.
UNKNOWN:Bye.