80s Ladies Romance
From clinch covers to monster lovers, we love romance.
80s Ladies Romance
Savage Thunder by Johanna Lindsay
Pam’s all-time favorite romance novel that Monica really enjoyed too. This is the one with the infamous sex on the galloping horse scene.
Welcome to 80s Ladies Read Romance. I'm Pam Lange and I read and write romance. And I'm Monica Gelman and I just like to read. And this book that we're talking about today is Savage Thunder and I'm so excited because I love it. It's one of my favorites from Joanna Lindsay. She is one of the most well-known romance writers and she died a few years ago, but she wrote a ton of books. She wrote about a book a year and this is Not all of them were great, but this is one of my favorites. So I'm excited to talk about why. And you said you liked it, right?
SPEAKER_02:I did. Looks like it was published in 1989.
SPEAKER_01:First published. Okay. Now the cover, who did the cover? I forget who did the cover if it was. I love clinch covers a lot. And I, this one is okay because I was never a Fabio fan and I don't like a couple of things like his Ugg boots. But I mean, I like, I love the title and the cover's okay. But what I like about it is, okay, so first of all, I have to say that Johanna Lindsay is, her style was kind of light. It was kind of fluffier than compared to other historical romance authors of the time. She wasn't heavy into the history. I mean, she didn't, a lot of the authors at that time were so proud. It was like a history book. They were really proud of their historical detail. And they got into a lot more external storytelling And they were sometimes more hardcore in some ways about the alpha male and the problem. But Joanna Lindsay keeps things, this book, I think she keeps things moving. And the history is just, the historical details are just peppered in, which is the way I like it because I'm not here for a textbook. I
SPEAKER_02:agree. And it didn't have a lot of, The long, flowery exposition, the lengthy descriptions of things, because I'm guaranteed to skip past that. So yeah, I thought that the pace was really good. By the first chapter, I was drawn in. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:and I was surprised, because typically I like the more hardcore books. I was like, I'm surprised I like this one so much. So structurally, I think as a romance novel, I think, like you said, the pacing is great. My favorite thing about it And I don't know if a lot of people today probably won't, I don't know if they'll agree, but I love the themes, the things that she has in there, all the romance novel themes that I like. There's the, you know, the handsome alpha hero. He's not too much of a dick. He's got a chip on his shoulder, but he's not a jackass or an idiot. His reason for having a chip on his shoulder is like the main obstacle and one of the main obstacles in the plot because he's, He doesn't want to get involved with white women at all because he was like, almost died because of one. And that's described in the first chapter. Before that, he was pretty well adjusted and everything was great. And then that happened. But the cool thing is that this, so that's the first chapter. But then the cool thing is the second chapter goes right to the heroine, Jocelyn is her name. At the same time, in the same years over in England, her situation is being set up, which is she married this, impotent billionaire duke just long enough to leave her his money then she has to leave england afterwards to escape the consequences of that i
SPEAKER_02:was going to say before we keep going this might help our listeners who aren't super familiar i was going to read this is the back cover okay okay says jocelyn fleming was a feisty flame-haired aristocrat newly widowed after a shockingly brief marriage to an elderly british lord Wealthy and titled, yet aching with the pain of unexplored desire, her restless heart led her from polite London society to the perilous beauty of the untamed American West. Colt Thunder was a rebel, a loner, impossibly handsome, brutally unpredictable. The Cheyenne blood running through his veins burned hotter than the blistering Arizona sun. In a bold and merciless land, their vastly different worlds collided. The wild desert stallion and the untouched English rose. igniting an unstoppable firestorm of frontier passion that threatened to consume them both.
SPEAKER_01:It's nothing like a vintage romance novel blurb.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:I want to say, touching on something you said, you said it has all the tropes you like, but one thing you just mentioned, I liked where she didn't go with a trope. When Jocelyn marries this guy, right? How many times have we seen the young thing goes off and marries the super old rich guy and he's awful. He's terrible to her. And this guy was kind. He was sick and she came to care for him. And I liked that. I was so ready for it to be your typical poor little rich girl.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_02:I think that that really made her more of a dimensional character, again, where she came to care for him she hadn't planned to, but she did. And I, like I said, I liked her so much better because I felt like she was kind of a real person and not just a
SPEAKER_01:spoiled girl. That's what I was going to say. These seem like real people, you know, in a way that a lot of romance characters don't. Right. And she is, they're both pretty well adjusted for romance characters, and especially her. She is. I don't know if you would call it anachronistic at all. I mean, it doesn't really seem like it unless you think about it maybe, but she seems like very well adjusted. This story starts in 18, what, 78 or something, which I guess is pretty close to modern times. What time is?
SPEAKER_02:1878. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But her attitude is very, the thing is, that's a problem with a lot of other contemporary historicals now. I see they always write, it's annoyingly anachronistic where they put current events political views and dialogue and vocabulary in their heads. It's not appropriate, but this fit seems to fit the time, but she's very kind of modern and in her attitude, but it is nice. That's a whole nother. Sometime we have to talk about that, that whole theme of marrying the old geezer for money and how it's different for men and women typically. But yeah, so she has to leave the country and she leaves for, so She's 19 when this happens. And so for three years, she's traveling the world just to hide out from the relatives that are after her in England. But then when she reaches 21, the villain is still after her because now he wants to, he can't for a different reason. Now he's trying to kill her because he can't get his money. He's mad. There's not a lot of flaws in my opinion about this. And the ones that are, I can mostly forgive because I like the rest so much. But the villain is super mustache twirling, and incompetent to an unbelievable degree. I mean, it just, it's kind of distracting because there's no way any villain would be this unsuccessful for that long. But it's important, I guess, I mean, I don't like to see bad things happen to my characters, but I mean, it's just not, I mean, he fails continually and One of his failures is how they meet, how Colton Jocelyn meets. She makes it to the West. I can't remember why, if they just got bored. She was going to the West to- She wants
SPEAKER_02:to be a farm. She wants a horse farm. Right. Yeah. Because she's an expert
SPEAKER_01:horse
SPEAKER_02:person. Leader person. Yeah. Her father bred horses, I think.
SPEAKER_01:The other hilarious thing is, especially about the villain, is they are traveling in this circus caravan. of like this huge, I don't know, turquoise carriage and like a uniformed guard of like, I don't know, a dozen or more men, carriages, supplies. I mean, they're just, can't miss them anywhere they go. And I mean, this would be in the newspapers if it was like really happening.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and she's traveling with her sassy best friend who
SPEAKER_01:I like. Another good thing I want to mention, I want to ask you about, you might have something to say about that because The friend is so cool. I mean, the relationship is cool. The friend is, I don't know, in her 30s, I think. She's still young. She's kind of described as an older matron, but she's also still given a young enough. She still has a sex life. She's not described as an old. She's got a side romance. She's got a side romance, which would have been great to see some of that as a side plot. But her advice, their conversations about now. Jocelyn wants to, by this time, she wants to lose her virginity. She never got to with the Duke. And the other thing I found kind of implausible was she wanted to be careful who it was because she didn't want to get anybody to find out that the Duke had an affliction of that nature. And it's like, how could anybody ever know? I mean, that was kind of hard to buy. But she didn't meet anybody that she really wanted until Colt. And this part I love because the whole thing from here on out reminds me of, I don't know what the kids do today, but even in the 80s, if it was so open and whatever, it was still not cool for the girl to make the first move. And we spent a lot of time in angst trying to get the guy to make the first move when they didn't. And that's a lot of what she has to do because she knows she wants him and she can't just come out and say it.
SPEAKER_02:Right. That's another thing that I liked about this book is it felt like a modern woman, but in a historical setting. So, you know, she has agency. She has no problem saying, you know, I want to have sex. I'm going to find somebody. I'm not finding someone to marry. I'm not looking for a husband. I'm perfectly fine with it being a one night stand. And there's no, slut shaming. There's no looking down upon that. Her friend's basically like, great, let's get you laid. That is really unique to your typical 80s historical heroine. Oh, I'm a flutter. You're kissing me. Just those ones drive me nuts. I used to like them, but they drive me nuts these days. i like that that you know despite and it was actually it's pretty unusual considering she was only 19. well
SPEAKER_01:by now when the story starts she's 21.
SPEAKER_02:true but even 21 to be as to be as self-assured of yourself and what you want and what you're willing to do to get it i mean that that's pretty impressive
SPEAKER_01:and to help her though she was an only child and she grew up isolated so the only children tend to be more that way but still true for that time period and she was set up in the story to be able to do that in a way by having unlimited money and a widow status so she kind of had some aids to help her right you know be in that situation but yeah that was really refreshing it was cool and i kept reading every time i read the dialogue the conversations with her and her friend vanessa it was it was cool it's like oh i love it i'm like and it was funny because you can just picture i can remember in the 80s and their 90s being like Plotting, you know, about guys and that we had a crush on and how to make things happen. Right. I don't know how different it is today, but it's I could identify with a lot of that. And so when they meet, he rescues her. I have no problem with rescues. I love it all day long. And their courage was turned over because of the another attempt by the villain to kill her. And she's separated from her entourage. And so it's just her and Vanessa in the carriage. It's tipped over and they can't get out. And so Colt Thunder comes. He's out there for his own reason. He's far from home because he's chasing after his younger brother. All of a sudden, he's like, you ladies want out? You want a hand? And she can't see him because it's, you know, sunlight and dark. And he pulls her out. And this is the other thing I found a little bit implausible. Okay. She's from England and maybe she's not hip on world events, but she was, I wasn't sure it's plausible that she would be that completely ignorant of the Indian situation and the prejudice situation. I mean, not that she wouldn't be, I wasn't surprised. I bought that she was not prejudiced or racist, but just that she was so unaware of what it even the situation was. By now. But anyway, so the deal is she doesn't understand at all the animosity between Native Americans or Indians and white people. And so he's naturally is. And to her, she's like some strange dude in the middle of a foreign desert is like offering to help us. Are you here to kill us? What's going on? And he thinks she is being racist, you know, looking down on him.
SPEAKER_02:Especially based on his past experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. He was dating this white woman. This was right after the wars had ended and the Indians lost everything. Things were settling into the white man was just taking over everything and the reservations were starting. He escaped the reservation because he's half white and his sister has this rich cattle ranch. She helped him assimilate and transfer into a white society, which he did, and he was fine. And then this white woman he was dating found out that he wasn't all white and almost got him whipped to death, which was brutal. I can't believe she described that in the detail. It's
SPEAKER_02:a really
SPEAKER_01:graphic scene. It was so gross. I mean, this sadistic bullwhacker having... And in real life, he would not have survived that, it sounds like. But in the
SPEAKER_02:story... I love in the story when his sister comes, well, his sister comes to like save him. It's very, I'm going to use the word like swashbuckling, right? There's a whip, but she's like, I mean. That was what I liked was this was a romance for sure. There was adventure to it. There was mystery to it, right? Like who's this guy who's after her? Where is he? That type of stuff, will he catch up? I liked that rather than purely being about the romance because I think that seeing those characters in the context of mystery and adventure made them more whole or more fleshed
SPEAKER_01:out. And it wasn't too much. It was just enough to support. The romance was still the central focus. And that was a great moment. I was so mad at Chase too. Her husband and his sister, they come barreling in with all their ranch hands on the horse and she had the gun. She was ready to blow his hand off. And her husband knocked her arm away. And she's like, what the fuck are you doing? Why did you do that? She was so mad. And I was mad too. I'm like, what is wrong with you? Exactly. You should have let that one go. But then they wouldn't have been able to have other events happen at the end of the book. So before then, he had no issue. He was fine. But now he has avoided white women ever since for three years. And he's had this understandable chip on his shoulder. And he started dressing again like an Indian and just letting everybody know to stay away from him without having to, you know, just on site.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was going to say, he also has a job to do, right? When he comes and rescues her, he's trying to find his runaway brother, his half-brother who's, you know, fooling around. So I think a lot of him is kind of like, lady, I don't have time for you. I'm already on a job to find my runaway brother. And by the way, also, I'm not messing with white ladies anymore. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:He's so funny about that. He's like, not my business. She starts babbling and she wants to keep him there. And he's like, lady, it's none of my business. I
SPEAKER_02:liked that because he didn't come off as a dick. I mean, a little bit of a dick, but not too bad. At least it was understandable. And it was kind of funny when he was like, you know, I don't have time for you. But what I liked was her reaction. I mean, she wasn't happy about it. She kept trying to go after him. But I'm going to contrast this to our last book that we talked about. I have forgotten the character because I disliked her so much. But she would have thrown a hissy fit like some little spoiled brat if a handsome man was not
SPEAKER_01:paying attention.
SPEAKER_02:Whereas Jocelyn was more like, but I could use your help. But she didn't. get just huffy like, how dare you not talk to me? And I liked that. Again, she was a likable character. I didn't want to throw her away.
SPEAKER_01:And it was like, she was in a real bind here because she can't, it's hard for her to, she can't get away with saying she needs him that much because he knows she's got like 700 people coming to your aid. Right. Like, no, I need you. And he's like, I don't have time for this. And his, you know, taciturn you know his short brief he's like that was funny and it was funny and I liked it that she Johanna Lindsay was she just show instead of the stupid internal dialogue which I hate in this first person that they're doing now I mean because it's third person POV she's able to show much better his reason you know why he's like that and it's And she did that well, I think. He was like, clearly, he's like a track. She showed that he was a track to her, that he was a little bit nervous, that he was purposely being gruff to just get away from this before he got more nervous. Exactly. And then, of course, they run into each other. So he does walk away, but they meet again in Tombstone. And this is where I appreciate a lot of times in some of the books of my most recent favorite authors from that time. They have characters that they include historical figures and the heroes are always like spying and they never it's like spying. I'm going to talk about that like for a whole episode someday because it's always so dumb and pointless. But there was like just a brief background of they were there. The characters were there when the shootout happened. Right. It's very background and brief. is kind of what helped them. She finally got him roped in to working for her. So then he now has to escort her to Wyoming, which I missed. Maybe, did you get that part? Now, I've read this a million times, and maybe it's my ADD, but I can never slow down enough and figure out if she said how Jocelyn figured out he was going to Wyoming. Because I know the younger brother said his sister was in Wyoming, but I couldn't find a spot where... he ever told her that Colt was headed to Wyoming.
SPEAKER_02:I don't remember. Yeah, I don't
SPEAKER_01:know. But somehow she wasn't, but I'm pretty sure that she wasn't planning on going there until she found out Colt was.
SPEAKER_02:But I thought that Wyoming was where she wanted to establish her horse car.
SPEAKER_01:She was going or California or whatever it was. I couldn't figure out if Wyoming was always in the cards or if it was a last minute decision to keep Colt with her.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'll have to look here because I'll see if I can find it. It's like in the beginning when she talks about that.
SPEAKER_01:But that's another really cute scene is there because Colt is still resisting. Right. And his brother says, look, I told her. He wound up talking to Jocelyn alone because Colt wouldn't go near her. And he's a young kid and she walked all over him and ended up getting him to invite to escort her. know to where they were right so he's like hey colt i told them they could come with us and he's like what what is happening we're leaving right now and so he's like you can't do that they're gonna get he talked him into he gave him a reason why they shouldn't really do that and colt had a conscience so they go over to their she's at the hotel packing expecting to meet up and colt is thinking he's going over to tell her forget it we're done take no for an answer They're both, so he and Colt and his brother are sitting in front of the hotel waiting for her to come out. And it's, I like this part because she kind of just really subtly describes perfectly his nervousness. He's not saying it, but he's, and his brother, and it says in his brother's voice, he's like, I don't know what Colt's going to say, but, you know, I know he wants to tell her, he's here to tell her, forget it. But, It's like, I don't understand it. He's, he's fiddling with his hat. He keeps looking at the door. He's 10. She described just, but Colt's not afraid of anything. So he can't be nervous. And it was just really, I love that. And then she gets them too. He gets, he gets like tricked into it. Right. From then on. And he's met. So now I also don't typically like books where the hero and heroine are not in proximity for a lot of the book. I hate that, but she does have him, not too much, but she does have him away from her because he starts circling the camp and scouting, you know, they're traveling now. And for some of the chapters, he's not always in her presence.
SPEAKER_02:Right. He's trying to stay deliberately trying to stay away from her.
SPEAKER_01:But she goes, so this is where she starts building tension because she They don't actually have sex until page 214, chapter 23, but the tension is building. And so the first time she sees him, he's a little bit away from camp. He's like rubbing down his horse or something. And she approaches him to try and talk to him and he puts her off. And they have a couple of these interactions where she's like, there's nothing you can do to make me fire you. And he's like, really? And the first time, how about this? And the first time he just kisses her brutally, like rudely. And I don't know how this would actually be in real life, but she kisses her in a way that's like, not like injurious, you know, but you could tell when she goes back to camp, Vanessa can tell that she's been kissed. Right. Because her lips are swollen. And she's like, what about now? Are you afraid of me? And she's like, I'm not firing you. I need you. And he's like, oh. And so then it happens. And the second time it happens, which I love, I think it's the second time, they have the same kind of interlude where she's like, you can't make me fire you. There's nothing you can do. And he's like, oh, really? And he throws her to the ground and fingers her. He just sticks his hand up her skirt. and she's like i wish she would have described that scene a little bit more because i think it was a little bit underdeveloped because she just gets up and goes back home to camp but so that's what else happened that was interesting then i mean
SPEAKER_02:and you know what i have to take issue with that like come on really like i mean maybe we're okay with he you know brutally kisses her although you know i would think that i would kind of be like yeah that it's one thing to kiss without consent but that that hurt like you hurt me when you kissed me that was that was not awesome and then yeah then he like freaking sexually assaults her and she's just like
SPEAKER_01:but then she's like please don't hurt me and then he stops and he's like oh god you mean he felt like a dick and he's like and he immediately immediately backed off
SPEAKER_02:but true this is true i mean you know like i said this one was not nearly as bad as some of the other ones that i'm just like no but yeah i remember being like oh
SPEAKER_01:just grabbed and fingered like immediately
SPEAKER_02:i don't know and i mean you know we could talk a lot of things about the fact that he thinks that what's the point is is he giving into his desire for her is he
SPEAKER_01:thinking so at this point they both want each other they are both dying for each other but he doesn't want to let himself believe Now, it almost seems kind of to the point of stupidity because everything, she's so obvious. Anybody, he could not possibly not know. But he doesn't know because he doesn't, because of his experience, he doesn't trust himself to believe that she really wants him. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Or that she will continue to want him. You know what I mean? I think that he thinks that she thinks he's a novelty.
SPEAKER_01:And she never really does. I mean, she never expected to fall in love, but she was never against it. Right. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting that that's what he chooses to make her go away, you know, to make her fire him. Because I'm thinking, you know, there are a lot of things shy of sexual assault that someone could do to me to make me fire them. Why didn't he employ any of those
SPEAKER_01:things? Maybe he figures she's a lady. Because I think there's a part of him that doesn't want to. He doesn't want to go away. He wants her. You know, and he's resisting that part of him. Right. I mean... That's why I think, I know it's a romance novel, but like in real life, that's in real life, it's completely implausible. He would definitely know that she wanted him. Right. But because of the plot, he is not aware of it yet, even though, you know, he's not admitting it to the point to his conscious mind. So he's always questioning and second guessing and trying to push her away. And then when they do, Oh, so when they do get together and this part is wild too, because it's, her and Vanessa, they're like, all right, I can't take it. Jocelyn's like, I can't take this anymore. We have to make this happen. Help me out. And Vanessa and her concoct this whole thing where they, they dress her up in lingerie, do her hair. You know, they're going to, they make her all sexy. And they're like, all right, we're going to make you look desire, like, like irresistible. And then you'll find a reason to have him come to your room. Right. And when he sees you, he's not going to be able to resist you. And, It didn't seem like it was gonna work out at first because nobody could find Cole. They got all ready. Tonight's gonna be the night. They sent away the guard from her room so he could just come in. Nobody would see him. And hours go by, he doesn't show up and she feels like, all right, tonight's not gonna be the night. She's disappointed. But then this is another nice part that I liked, but he didn't show up. Then nobody could find him because he was across the street in the shadows, drinking vodka, watching her window, her open window, imagining all the things that could come true if he went over there, but he didn't want to go, but he could didn't, you know, he's fighting with his conscious. And now he's like, he didn't go over there. He's just standing there staring at her window. And she doesn't know that. And then before it actually happens, she, Lindsay sets up like a whole chapter, way too long of a setup. It was just so long. I was skipping. I was just skipping pages because it was way too long of the setup to this. This is the only part where I really thought the pacing was kind of off because almost a whole chapter was spent describing burglars coming into her room, making her try and get a crawl out the window, which she could do because it's only a second story episode. place in, you know, 1800 old West, but she gets stuck there and she's like, crap, what do I do now? And Colt comes and catches her. And he's like, God damn it. I spent all night avoiding this. And now here I am with my hand on her ass. This is not going to hurt you. And he gets in a room and they have a fight. Of course. And he slams out and I done. And then they do the classic thing where I think it's a classic thing where then he comes in a second later. And he opens the doors halfway and he's like, and when are you going to lock this door? You know, and he doesn't get, like he loses his words because he finally, he's all this time he's been avoiding looking at her. Because if he looks at her, it's like too much. But so he finally now looks right at her and then he steps into the room and closes and locks the door behind him. And the whole way she describes that while he's staring at her is awesome. And then they have this little moment where he comes right up to her and that's the blurb that's in the front of the book.
SPEAKER_00:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:okay. Where he's like, scream now, Duchess, while you've got the chance. You won't get another. Oh, yeah. But he still gives her every chance. He still moves slow. So in this scene...
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I didn't have... I didn't have a problem with this scene. I mean, and this scene, this was very, very clearly two consenting adults who were making it pretty clear what they were there for, what they wanted, what was, you know, nobody was there under a false pretense. I mean, I guess technically with her fancy lingerie, but still, like I didn't have any problem with that scene. I was like, yeah, good, good for you, girl. I mean, I guess the only false pretense is that she didn't tell him she was a virgin.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, and that's an issue later afterwards. He's like, then, then of course you think they're going to get, everything's going to be fine now, but no, because now he's mad that she used him. Right. And although it was not nice the way he got that information out of her. We'll get that. And that scene actually, I thought was pretty, it was pretty good, even though they were not as graphic back in the day, except for maybe retreat small, but we'll get to her another day, but they were a lot more, they didn't, they were not nearly as graphic in general as now, but yet it was still a hot scene. It
SPEAKER_02:was a hot scene. I thought.
SPEAKER_01:And I love the way a lot of times in the old books, they just get right to it. Like there's not a lot of foreplay. He is like in her, like right away. But the only thing about that scene that I didn't really like was the one comment. I wish I could have thought of a better phrase. Like, cause he's once he tells her, he's going to put her. He's going to carry her to the bed himself. And so she's waiting while he takes off her stuff and he's like undressing. And he's like, wait a minute. Right. I don't know what to do. She's never done this before. So she's like goes to move to the bed because she feels awkward. And he's like, no, I said I was going to put you there myself. And he says something like he was going to lay her down and fill her with his flesh.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I really wish there was a better way he said that. But that's really my only complaint about their actual sex scene. And then, I mean, it's like, what can we think of that would have been better than that? But then the next day he leaves before she wakes up because he realizes during sex that she's not a virgin. And he doesn't say anything then. Which, I
SPEAKER_02:mean, come on, man.
SPEAKER_01:Like... Right. And she even says to him, oh, piss off. She's like, piss off. What's wrong with you? Are you mad that I wanted you and that we had this great sex? What's your
SPEAKER_02:problem? Or even just the whole, this whole trope that like, you know, every virgin has a hymen that suddenly gets quote unquote groped and like all these things that are
SPEAKER_01:medically incorrect. How can you always tell? You can't always tell, can you? Who knows?
SPEAKER_02:Right. Like, yeah. So that just, I mean, that trope is there and does bug me that suddenly he realizes, oh, oh no, she's a virgin, you know?
SPEAKER_01:And he's not, but at least he wasn't the usual, oh, I'm so proud. I'm the only one. Right. But still he was kind of like really childish about it. That he's like, you used me. It's like, get over yourself there. But because he wants her for more than just sex and he's still needs reassurance. This is where maybe there could have been a little bit of unnecessary miscommunication there. I mean, really, an adult might have somebody might have just said, look, you know, what do you want? This is what I want. You know, at this point, it seems like a little bit implausible that there's that much miscommunication.
SPEAKER_02:True, because she has been pretty forthcoming with him the whole time.
SPEAKER_01:But he he wants to hear her say it. So he can't beat it out of her. He can't torture or anything. So he decides to seduce it out of her. He starts kissing her and everything. feeling her up and getting her all. And he's like, tell me, tell me, why'd you do it? And so she finally told him. And then he steps away and he's like, oh, mad. Then they get back on the road and he goes back to avoiding her, like in the old days. But then they have another couple of incidents where they meet up again away from the camp.
SPEAKER_02:And before we get on, can we talk about the lovely role reversal? The dude. is mad because she used him for sex like wow right this is this is a like i don't want to call it like female empowerment because i feel like that goes too far but i do feel like this is more feminist than your typical one because how many times is it the guy uses her for sex that's all he wants whatever and you know nobody really blinks and The fact that he was upset about it. I even had to stop for a second. Cause I was like, why is he so upset? He's a guy. And then I was like, because men have feelings too, Monica, because people don't like to be used male or female. So I like, I think that like to turn that on its head and really make it again about like, this is what I want. I used you for. And he's like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_01:But she didn't use it. He just made that assumption. By this point, in her mind, she's in love with him. She just hasn't named it yet. In her mind, she does not want to leave him at all, but she just hasn't faced it and articulated it yet. I mean, she... I don't know. Do you think when she went into that sex that she went into it with the intention that it would be temporary? I
SPEAKER_02:do. I do. I think that even if it was because she didn't think he was that into her, but... He
SPEAKER_01:had given her no reason to think, but if he had decided to actually pursue her and be honest, she would have been like, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, except for later on, then she starts talking with the guy who turns out to be a bad guy, but she's keeping her options open, I feel like. I
SPEAKER_01:feel like it's only because he didn't declare himself, but we can't know. I guess that's something we can each
UNKNOWN:...
SPEAKER_01:I mean, you can kind of
UNKNOWN:...
SPEAKER_01:interpret for yourself, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, either way, I don't care
SPEAKER_01:because this is patriarchy and whatever.
SPEAKER_02:What happens in real life? I mean, you know, you have a crush on somebody, but eventually if it doesn't look like they're going to say something to you, you're like, well, I got to move on. Like I don't have all day. So I think that, yeah, I mean, I
SPEAKER_01:just love the whole, a lot of times it's so crude and direct and now in the books now, and I just love the games and, that they have to play to get what they want because they can't, they are restricted in some way from saying, just coming out with it.
SPEAKER_02:To me, it depends on what the reason is. The fact that he couldn't come out and say things because he'd been almost beaten to death by racists, I think is a really good.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, no, his chip was valid. Right,
SPEAKER_02:like some of the other people, when they don't say things, I'm like, ugh. annoying. You can see it coming a mile away. But the
SPEAKER_01:women, they couldn't do that. And I don't think even today they can really get away with that completely. And so I like that it's just, I think that's accurate. I don't know how much has actually changed there. I mean, because people may do it, but I don't know how they're seen by guys if they do it. But Because I've heard, like my friend has all boys and she talks about, and they're all very attractive boys and get hit on by girls all the time. And she's like, oh my God, they're telling me these girls are just horrible, not classy, throwing themselves. And they don't value it, let's say, whatever they're doing. So they get, they're getting closer and closer to Wyoming now. And they're halfway there now, at least. And So after they have this fight and he's avoiding her, I don't know if this is smooth. I don't know if it's just dropped in or not. But these two con artists show up posing as brother and sister. Right. And they don't have anything to do. Well, they meet up with Jocelyn's enemy, but they are their own con artist. And the guy marries widows and kills them and takes their money. Right. It's a scam. So he thinks he's going to con Jocelyn. Right. And she's like laughing at him the whole time. So they go out on this ride and he gets her away from camp, away from her help. And he had already met up with her, Jocelyn's enemy. And the deal was he was going to turn her over to him. But he wanted to try first to marry her and get all the money for himself. And she was on to him immediately and was like, dude, no. I have your number, forget it. And he was all humiliated and enraged. And so he takes her to the villain, which I hate his name. I don't even want to say it, but it's a lot. She named him long nose because they didn't know who the guy was all this time. I forgot that. So she'd been calling him long nose, which I hate that name, but it's because he's, she hasn't known his face or who he is.
SPEAKER_02:And it's like the one armed man from the fugitive. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So meanwhile, she gets there and she faces Long Nose and his little gang of idiots. And she's afraid now because she thinks she's going to die. And she's trying to figure out how she can cause some damage before she does if she can't get away. And oh, and she's with. OK, so up until this point, we don't know that Colt had enlisted his friend Angel to join the gang that she somehow found out about, infiltrate them and, you know, Because
SPEAKER_02:somebody was talking, I want to say when they were in Tombstone, someone was talking in one of the saloons. I think that was it.
SPEAKER_01:And so it turns out he's got this friend named Angel who also gets his own book, which we have to talk about again because it was okay, but it could have been better. But Angel is a nice character. He feels like he owes Cold a favor. So he agrees to join their gang to keep tabs on him. And he's the one that escorts her to Longnose. But he doesn't tell her who he is. And so she's mad at him for the rest of her life because he let her be afraid. Right. So he gets there and I don't know if this is actually plausible, but now Angel is like one of the best, world's best gunman. And he's up against, it comes down to he has to get Jocelyn away. He's not going to let him take her and kill her. And so he has to get her out of there and he is facing off against like six or eight other guys with guns. And I don't know if this is actually plausible in real life, but he, they all put their guns down and like, we're not even going to try with you because they knew he was so good with a gun. So he rides away with her. And in the middle of riding away, they have some cute, some funny dialogue there. Yes. Cause she's like trying to start shit with him. And he's like, lady, I would be nice to me if I were you. Right. And he's like, why don't we get married so I can beat you? And he's like, And she's like, ah. And this leads to one of my other favorite parts because Colt shows up out of nowhere. She doesn't seem at first. This rider's coming towards them. And she's like, somebody's coming. And she doesn't know who it is yet. She doesn't know why Angel's stopping and getting down. And he's just waiting. And so she takes off running because she thinks it's somebody else coming to get her. Colt swipes her up mid-yellow, puts her on a horse.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And she's so relieved it's him. And she starts crying. And he's like, his arms are around her. And he's like, what's wrong? Are you okay? No, he said, are you okay? And I mean, that moment was like one of my things. And I love that. But then she is like, you need to go kill that motherfucker. And she's like, I'm going to go kill him. Put me down. And he's like, you're not, but I might. And then they go meet up and they have this debriefing. And they have this other great moment where Colt's jealous because they start explaining the whole situation. And he's like, what the hell did you do that for? She couldn't. Why did you put her in that situation? And Angel's like, well, she has a right to know her enemy. I just wanted her to. I had it covered. All right. She had a right to know. Now she knows what it looks like. And then the conversation turns to why was she even out there? And she was out there with Miles. Miles is a con man. And Colt's like, she's like, why didn't you tell me before? You knew about it. And he's like, well, I didn't want to ruin your little romance. So now he's mad at her and he's jealous. And she says, you know, I should kill you myself. And I love this too when they do this. He just tosses her his gun and he's like, okay. Knock yourself out. And she's like, oh, you bastard. You know, of course. So she rides away. I love those. I love little moments like that. And I don't know. But then what? What? I don't know. There's anything I want to say about that point. So then we get to the end. There's a couple of things that happen in the third quarter that are must be mentioned. Yeah, because, you know, I have a problem with one. So a couple of other little things happen where. He gets hurt and she tends to him. And, you know, there's some other discussions that are great with her and Vanessa and her and Colt. And then we get towards the final third where after this last thing that happens where Colt was in a shootout, they him and Jocelyn, he says, all right, I give up. Let's you and I go the rest of the way the next couple of weeks on our own and the rest can follow. And she's like, he's like, you get my drift. Right. And she's like, yes, I do. She's like, I'll go think about it. And then like an hour later, she's ready to go.
SPEAKER_02:Well, cause he pretty much says, I can't remember who says it exactly. Or he definitely implies that like, we're going to be together and we're going to be together in every sense of the word on this trip.
SPEAKER_01:Or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And she's like, okay. You know what? And she gets it. Like, you know, again, this is a, This is a nice missed opportunity. I'm glad she didn't take this opportunity to have some stupid-ass misunderstanding where she's like, what? I didn't know we were going to do that. I thought you meant that we would just be pen pals. She knows exactly what he's talking about, and I do like that.
SPEAKER_01:No, my virtue, whatever. But she did briefly. It was kind of funny where she's like, I'll go think about it, and I'll let you know. And then a sentence later, she's packed and waiting for him. Right. And they... While they head out, I haven't read another scene like this. I have not read every romance book in the world. But in all my reading, I have not read a scene where people had sex on a galloping horse. But Colt and Jocelyn did. And because so she wakes up to an orgasm because he got her unbuttoned and he's got his hand in her and she wakes up and she's like climaxing. And then they proceed to have sex. He flips her around and they have actual sex on the galloping horse. And I, you know, I didn't like this for different reasons, for your reasons, but my reason was I just couldn't stop thinking about like paralysis. There's going to be an accident. Somebody's going to lose their walking ability. Just pull over. You're in the desert. There's nobody here. Just pull over and put down your blanket. I
SPEAKER_02:had the problem with, of course, why? are you touching her when she is asleep you have established you have already had sex you have established that you've made it clear to her that you intend to continue with sex and she appears to be fine with that
SPEAKER_00:wake
SPEAKER_02:her up that's gross
SPEAKER_01:but he did wake her up just with his fingers
SPEAKER_02:no no that is not so that that one really rubbed me the wrong way i was like what
SPEAKER_01:I feel like it was implied. I feel like consent was implied by this point. But
SPEAKER_02:even still, let me tell you, in my previous life, I 100% prosecuted a case where the husband, like where the wife woke up to the husband putting his penis in her mouth. She most definitely did not consent to that.
SPEAKER_01:What was their relationship? Would she have wanted him to do that? Or was he like, did they hate each other?
SPEAKER_02:They were kind of in between if I remember right. But still, no. This one, I'm going to say both. To me, it was not sexy at all. It was wake her up by nuzzling her neck, shake her gently and say, do you want to fuck? But not the way that he did.
SPEAKER_01:That would have been great. I acknowledge and appreciate what you're saying. But I was like, I wouldn't have minded it. I don't think she minded it. I think she was on board with it. I mean, because I mean, he has done nothing to this point to to be rapey. So, I mean, I mean,
SPEAKER_02:except for when he. forces her on the ground and forces his fingers in. This is her heart without her consent. I mean, great track record.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, she kind of, well, whatever I would have been, I forgave him. So she did too, but I just didn't like, I don't know that whole sex on the horse thing was, it was infamous. I mean, a lot of people have talked about it and I haven't come across too many, uh, I guess it's technically like possible, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that. All I can think about are fleas. I just kept thinking of Christopher Reeve. I'm like, no, stop, just pull over. But then they did. And so then all of this time throughout the whole book, she has not seen his back. So this is the other little implausible thing, because whenever they had had sex, so they've been on the road, this whole trip of them together alone was like two or three weeks. And they've been boning the whole time. And every time she tries to apparently put her arms around him, he moves her arms away and holds them somewhere. And I just can't figure out how it's possible that she's never going to feel his back in this whole time that they've been having sex. But she doesn't. And so she still doesn't know what happened to him. And... Towards the end, they're starting to get sad because they're like, oh, we're going to reach civilization soon and this is going to come to an end. I don't know why they're still thinking that, why they can't just say at this point, let's get married, let's hook up, whatever. But, you know, they still feel like they can't be her just because he hasn't taken the lead and declared himself and him because he's And that's what women expect, you know, at that time, at least. And him, because he still doesn't, for some dumb reason, believe she really wants him, which I can't. But they get to this town and she's like, hey. Before we join civilization, I really want to do something that I can't normally do. I want to go take me to a brothel. Take me to a whorehouse. Well, that's right. And he's like, no. And I mean, no. And she's like, come on. And he's like, so she gets them to compromise with a saloon. And he makes her disguise herself as a man. And, of course, she blows it. Anyway, the bullwhacker's there. In this saloon is the guy that almost whipped him to death. And the whole cult's been... wanting to meet up with him to get revenge all this time, but he never found, now he, now he happens to run into him and Jocelyn's so dumb. She forgets that she's supposed to be a boy. I don't know. She gets this guy's, he threatens her because she irritates him and Colt freezes. He can't, he just like gets PTSD and he can't for a minute. He's just frozen and he can't intervene like he normally would. And Jocelyn is, Doesn't know what happened. So she is mad. She's like, forget it. I'm never going to forgive you. Cause like you let him almost kill me. You didn't do anything just to what scare me. She's like, what's what the fuck. And she walks out. And I guess I think after she does that, he finally, he, well, he snaps out of it and he shoots him. He finally, you know, get some money. So he goes back to the, that was it? The train car. Now they're, they catch it. Now they're close enough where they're going to catch a train. She gets a fancy train car and, because she's Jocelyn and it has a fancy compartment and bathroom and everything. And he assumes he's just going to go, it's over. And he's just going to go get a ticket and sit in another car and they're done because he feels bad, but he's like, he's not about to tell her what happened. Anyway, he takes off his shirt to look at his back to see, because during this, he had whipped him again. He wanted to see if he did anything. He can't feel anything now. So Jocelyn comes out and she finally sees his back and they have this heart to heart and she's like all upset. And she's like, they have this nice scene. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm trying to remember. He's like, don't pity me. And she's like, no, I'm not pitying you. I
SPEAKER_01:just feel bad that you were, someone did this to you. Right. I don't know what's the difference. How is that not pity, but okay. I don't know what the difference is either, but she's just all upset that this happened to him. And they, I don't know, he's touched. They both appreciate each other there. They have this moment. But then they show up. They arrive in Wyoming at his sister's ranch. And he jumps through there and leaves. Right. And she is offended and confused. And his sister is like, no, we're at the very end. And his sister is like, she realizes that they're in love. And so she goes up. She goes up to his place and she in a night, this is a nice little scene where she's like, what is wrong with you? Just go ask her to marry him. And the way they did the way she kind of pushed him into it was cute. So he shows up and he's like, all right, I guess I can't lose anything by asking. And he, when he goes over there is when long nose decides to show up and finish the job. Right. And that whole part was kind of, and that was kind of a fizzled out part, but she, she, He shows up just in time to get rid of them. And the nice part is she goes over to the window and she's just looking out the window and he, oh, no. So before that, Vanessa is now engaged to one of the guards, her little side story. And she's there with him. And for the first time ever, He uses her first name. He's like, all right, I got this Vanessa. And he shuts the door in her face. And she's like, well, and he's in her guy is like, well, what do you care? You don't have to live with them. And she's like, how right you are. And so Jocelyn's staring at the window. She's not looking at him and he comes up behind her and he just says, will you marry me? And she is so relieved. She just drops her head on the window. And she's just, I mean, that whole moment was like so nice. And then he's like, she's like, don't think I'm living in your little cottage, right? We're going to live. And he's like, you're not cooking either. Okay. I would like to live. And I just, I love that moment so much. But then Angel gets it. We'll have to read Angel at some point because I thought that was, it wasn't bad, but it was not nearly as great as Savage.
SPEAKER_02:Well, supposedly there's a book about when jesse and her husband get together oh
SPEAKER_01:yeah that was the first book before savage thunder that book wasn't bad either but i just really like colt a lot better as a hero then chase wasn't bad i mean it wasn't bad but i just chased colt was like worlds better okay in my mind in my imagination colt's like much sexier but it was it was still a good book and in that one jesse was like this tomboy chip on her shoulder because her father was a dick and really not nice to her, but he died and she was running the ranch. And then her mom showed, he raised her to hate her mom unjustifiably. And her guy was a friend of her mother's and she sent him there to like watch her cause she wasn't of age and she's running this ranch. And they, he like, they do it right away. And he tries to like say, hey, don't get attached. You know, he acts like a dude would like normally. And she's like, fuck you. You know, it's like, how dare you? And she's like, but she's pregnant. She gets pregnant right away. And she does this whole shotgun wedding thing, which is much more like nowadays. I hate like the trend now is forced marriage. Like the guy wants to make her marry him and then they fall in love, which is so just, it's like, give me a break. It's much more what really happens is, It was much more logical. It was much more plausible back in the day where he, yeah, he took you or he kidnapped you or whatever, but he wanted you to be his mistress. He didn't want to commit. And he was forced to marry you at gunpoint. You know, that's the way things went more normally, but it was a joke because they both know he wasn't. So they ended up, I mean, they had a little bit more of a classic contentious situation, but she is. Her father was like an asshole and he fathered like a whole bunch of different people. And so Indian woman, which was Colt and someone else. So he had, so Colt and Jesse, the girl and this younger brother that's in Savage Thunder, they're all sit half siblings from this one asshole. And the younger brother is the only one that, I mean, he grew up cultured in New York and like with money. And Jesse grew up on the ranch. I mean, she had a ranch, but she grew up, you know, in the old west and Colt grew up as an Indian. So yeah, but that story, it wasn't a bad story. I just, Colt was, he was there to help out her mother and he did that. He was mad because she led him on some wild goose chases, which was kind of funny because he was from, he's not a ranch hand. He's not from the west. And he was, you know duped by her a couple of times hilariously which served him right because he was like after he slept with her the first time he was ready to like not get attached but Angel's story I really would have liked it to be better because I'm interested to see what you think of that because he's a really nice character too but I thought it was more sappy and kind of cheesy than compared to Savage Thunder well then this was a good one for me to start with then Yeah. So the, it's interesting to see what, it will be interesting to see what you think about the first, the book and, you know, the book of his sister beforehand and the book of Angel behind it. Cause, but it was weird. There was kind of like a Luke Skywalker thing to this, where in the first book with Chase and Jesse, his sister, Colt was in that book, but he was with his Indian tribe and he was, and he was white thunder and, and, He wasn't in it a lot, but he was, it was kind of written like he might've been interested in her. Like there was a moment where she was bathing and he was kind of like not looking at her, but interested. And then in the second book, they're siblings. So I don't know what happened there with her plotting, but nothing ever happened. They never like, they were always just friends, but there was that weird scene where he wasn't watching her bathe. But he noticed her. But other than that, they were just friends. But I just like all of the there was just so many nice scenes in Savage Thunder where classic scenes where he rescues her. He's fighting his attraction to her. You can see his emotions. But I think the third person really helped here because I just I do not like so much first person. And I don't like these. alternate viewpoints because you have to have these ridiculous internal dialogues in order to make the story work or I think it would be better just to have the universe the third person omniscient or you know where you can get in different people's heads I mean I can't imagine Colt having a dialogue with himself he did but in third person so he didn't sound like a I'm trying to remember that part really I just think the third person was so much better. I mean, I think if this were in first person and they alternate viewpoints like they're doing now, it would have really ruined it.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_01:whether it would be good
SPEAKER_02:for this book or not, I don't know. I love first person alternating viewpoints. I enjoy that here. I think it
SPEAKER_01:was, but do you think the guy, I mean, what guy is going to, some of the dialogues that he has on himself or just no guy is going to ever do that. It's just, I agree.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. And I roll my eyes all the time when the guy's like, I think she's so cute. I'm like, my husband has only used cute in his life to describe babies and bunny rabbits. Never a girl. That's just not a thing.
SPEAKER_01:But just in the way they talk to themselves about wanting her and getting with her, they're like, they're all, I'm going to, I mean, I don't know. I just,
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I don't know because I'm not a dude,
SPEAKER_01:so I
SPEAKER_02:don't really know what goes on. You know, I'm much more critical
SPEAKER_01:of Well, that's the other thing. A lot of these are written by women in the dialogue. They write these guys talking to themselves like they're women. A lot of them don't sound like they're men.
SPEAKER_02:Nope. And again, I'm not trying to gender stereotype. There may be men that certain... I have no idea how a man thinks because I'm not in a man's head. I can talk about the men in my life that I've experienced how they talk, that a lot of the things that I read don't seem to jibe with my experience of men that I've known in real life, though I suppose it's possible that there are men who really do talk like that, you know. But when it comes to, it's much harder when it comes to like those internal monologues or those trying to put their thought process. I'm like, I don't know. Doesn't sound like any guy I know, but I'm not in their head either. So who
SPEAKER_01:knows? I understand the rationale that first person is supposed to make you closer to the fantasy and help you get into it more. But I think third person can do that just as well or better if it's done right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think you have to do it in first person. I'm just saying, I like it when they do.
SPEAKER_01:When I first, so I went through this period, like I told you how that, I'm still so mad about the day I decided it wasn't cool to have romance novels. And I dumped my collection, which I just, oh, it makes me cry to think about to use bookstore. But in between, so once I got over this and I came out of this period where I wasn't you know, reading them. I came back to reading them and things had changed. And this, I didn't know what was going on. I wasn't prepared for this alternate viewpoint. I'm like, what the hell is this? I was, I was confused at first and annoyed. And now I'm familiar with it. But I was like, at first I just, I was just like, what is happening? Because the last time I was reading romance, that wasn't happening. Right. Right, right, right. Oh my God. That was an unpleasant awakening. But, I like this book a lot for all of those reasons.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Like I said, I enjoyed it. It grabbed my attention. It was a literal beach read for me. And I finished it very quickly. And I don't think there was much I was skimming through. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:like I said, there's not the action. Things just moved. And it's not like a lot of other books from this period that I liked. And my favorite author is, it doesn't get heavy into... history and other details it just is pretty light for a romance novel I mean it's it and that's the amazing thing I think it's it's light and kind of fluffy but yet it evokes all of these classic things all of the classic things that I love about romance novels and seems to portray real people well and I'll tell you another
SPEAKER_02:thing that I like that's a little bit different is I mean yes they talk about because I'm looking here at the very end They talk about that they would like to have children, but so many, I feel like, of the books of this genre end with either she's accidentally pregnant, but yay, we're in love, we're going to get married anyway. Or there's the epilogue tagged on to where they're married and she's, you know, her belly swells with my child as I can't stand that language.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the green ink is a whole huge thing. Yeah. So
SPEAKER_02:I liked that they really resisted. Like I said, so many of the things that annoy me about, you know, kind of, and I'm not against formulaic. I mean, it's not romance, but I'm a huge fan of the cozy novel. they're extremely formulaic i love it there is a comfort it's the same reason i like to watch hallmark movies you know what's going to happen and that's fine so i'm not saying but i just what i really think kind of stood out to me about this book was lindsay had the opportunity to go with what was very much in vogue during the time that she was writing these books and she chose not to and i like that i think that was interesting i think it set it apart and made it that's partially with the exception of, like I said, there are still questionable consent, but I think this one is more timeless. You know what I mean? I think this can survive kind of not just being of a, of its time eighties novel because she resisted so many of those.
SPEAKER_01:So one other question I had was, so in the ways that we thought Jocelyn and their, in her interactions with Colt, we thought that they were, kind of modern in their mindset. Do you think it's modern now, or do you think it's different more with the way people would have been in the 80s or 90s?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, as you and I have discussed before, you and I had a different upbringing in the 80s and 90s. I had a pretty conservative one, so I can't speak to, and I graduated high school in 92, so I can't really speak to whether that was modern or for young women in that time, you know, if, if that was modern for 1989 or not,
SPEAKER_01:it wasn't, it wasn't in the eighties and nineties was like sexual utopia for,
SPEAKER_02:I mean, and again, to my experience, it wasn't that because I still had, you know, very conservative Christian upbringing that was don't.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well I had alcoholic neglectful parents. So that was, that was part of it.
SPEAKER_02:So I can't, I'm not a good person to ask about whether or not I think it's reflective of the time, but it's certainly, I would say not reflective of 1897 or 67 or whatever the heck this takes place.
SPEAKER_01:But yet it doesn't feel annoyingly anachronistic to me, like some other things I've, I've come across. Right. Right. So, but I don't know. All right. Well, Johanna Lindsay, Savage Thunder, she wrote, I know she wrote many books. Not all of them were as awesome as this, but, This is my absolute favorite of hers. We have to talk about some of her other, maybe since we read this one, we should have talked about the other two in comparison. But have you ever read any Bertrice Small? I haven't even heard of her. Oh my God. She is, I didn't, I never liked a lot. I liked, I didn't never like all of her stuff, but I liked, I liked it as a kid just for the racy bits, but she was not romantic.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, when I was a kid and I was looking for racy bits, I was reading D.C. Andrews. For our listeners who might want to read this book, it is not going to be on Libby or Hoopla or probably even in your library. Shout out to Thrift Books. I was able to find, if you're not, I'm sure if you, you know, want to go look at garage sales and goodwill, but Thrift Books had a wonderful assortment. It's not on Kindle.
SPEAKER_01:You can't get it
SPEAKER_02:on digital. I don't think so because I would have done that.
SPEAKER_01:But be careful if for some reason it's on audio and I haven't checked, be careful before you buy older books on audio because sometimes they're bridged and they're not the whole story. So you kind of have to make sure before you buy, if you're getting the entire work. Right.
SPEAKER_02:I still
SPEAKER_01:haven't finished Shanna and I have the audio. I liked that more than you did, but yeah, we both equally hated Shanna. She is grade eight. C-U-N-T. And she was that way. She was a horrible person throughout more than at least three quarters of the book.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Meanwhile, I did not make it to three quarters. The hero was like a model. There was like nothing wrong. His only flaw was that he didn't have any flaws. He was like really a model hero, but that's interesting too. Cause you can see how the characters reflected the author's views because it was traditional conservative. Yeah. And I'm still amazed about to find out that it was a Shakespeare style copy of a much older book by a guy written. It was called Johnny, Lord Johnny or something. And I haven't been able to read the whole book because it's written with a lot of dialect that it's hard to wade through. But it was almost the same story, only from the guy's viewpoint. I mean, there was... enough change to make it a romance, but it was more of a swashbuckling focus, but it was the same setup almost exactly. Or he was on death row and she came and made him this deal. And everybody loved that book. I mean, it gets rave reviews and I don't know how, because yeah, the plot is great, but the just, I cannot get through the dialect. I just, just write. I need them to just skip that and write. I can imagine that they had a different accent, but it's too hard to wade through it, reading it. The old English, you know, the British. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. The 200s accents, especially of the lower classes.
SPEAKER_02:It's the same reason I couldn't get into The Witch, the movie.
SPEAKER_01:I couldn't get past the accents.
SPEAKER_02:When
SPEAKER_01:are we going to talk about Lace?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I got to go back and read it.
SPEAKER_01:Now we're jumping ahead. Lace is a contemporary story for the 80s. Was it 80s or 90s?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was written in the 80s because I want to say the miniseries. It might have even been written in the late 70s because the miniseries came out in the 80s.
SPEAKER_01:And supposedly it's based on roughly on a truth. I think the author was in that world. Oh, I did not know that. I was looking it up and she is a writer that went to like Ivy Leagues and was really in that. in the upper crust of society and based the, it's fiction, but heavily based on her own experiences.
SPEAKER_02:Right. The
SPEAKER_01:famous line is what from that miniseries? Which one of you bitches is my mother? That kicks off the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02:Sure does. It was originally published in 1982. So yeah, it was contemporary, you know, for 1982 or maybe, maybe taking place a few years couple of years before. I can't remember if it, I think it does take place in 82, but without giving too much away, a good amount of it takes place in flashback, which would have been in the sixties.
SPEAKER_01:And Phoebe Cates was the...
SPEAKER_02:Phoebe Cates. I can't remember the other women. I can see them all in my head, but I cannot think of the other actresses.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that was when romance novels weren't cool, but boy, did everybody love the miniseries. Exactly. And it was a big, that's a thick book. And there was a couple other sequels, I think, too. But that lace was just huge. I know.
SPEAKER_02:I know. Back in the day when I actually could stick with long books. So.
SPEAKER_01:But, okay. So.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Well, hopefully we have some good material here. I realized I didn't have as much to say, probably because I liked the book. So I was like, I don't have a problem with it. And that's because very recently I read a book. It did have a trigger warning. I should have listened to it because I did not like it at all, at all. It was very disturbing, but I can't blame the author. The author let me know what was going to be in it and that indeed was in it. I just didn't know how I was going to react to it. So I would not have a problem with assigning a trigger warning because I don't see a trigger warning as a, nobody should read. I see it as a, like a, like a road sign. Hey, heads up, there's an accident several miles ahead. you can stay on this course. That's fine. Stay on the road. You can take a detour. That's your choice. I'm just letting you know. So I wouldn't have a problem with it on there because I'm in this, there's a Facebook group called the smut hood and they talk all about books and then people ask for things. And I'm like, Oh, Nope, that would not be my thing. But you know, then I just scroll past because I don't have that.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I feel like it just, it's out of hand. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:trigger warning stuff as if everything has to be a trigger warning, then it kind of lends a label to fiction and art. And I think, you know, that's really important that people have their own interpretations without a paternalistic censorship kind of intervention, because it casts a, when you have trigger warnings, it casts a kind of a I
SPEAKER_02:don't know that it does. I think there are readers out there who are very much attracted to that. And when they see, oh, contains this, this and this, they're like, great. I mean, I see people and I'm going to use their words, not mine. So I'm not trying to criticize them. But there will be people who are like, I need you to recommend the sickest book you can think of. There is nothing too kinky. I want something that is just absolutely horrifying. Please recommend that book to me. They would love to trigger warnings or like a wish list for them. So I don't know that it necessarily has a chilling effect. I just simply think of it as, like I said, it's information.
SPEAKER_01:There's no trigger warnings on other things that there should be. Why should there be?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, there's all kinds of them on television, video games, movies are rated.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm not sure if there isn't one, you know, if the author should be attacked because of it. I mean, it's kind of your responsibility, what you read and to handle what you read, to expect other people to kind of babysit you through life. I think there's a little bit of that in the degree to which everything has to have a warning and a safeguard. I think it lends to a kind of self-censorship for creators.
SPEAKER_02:Suppose the other thing is though, I mean, if you're someone who doesn't use someone who is concerned about getting upset, then the lack of a trigger warning might make you not read it. You know, you might just be like, Hey, I don't want to get into this book and be upset. I've had some bad stuff happen to me in my life. And, uh, you know, I'm a sexual
SPEAKER_01:assault. Okay. There's a harsh scene. If there's graphic violence or a graphic rape. Okay. But I mean, In this book, if you're going to have a trigger warning for rape, I mean, that's kind of over the line, I think. So I think there's degrees of where it kind of gets out of hand. You know what I
SPEAKER_02:mean? Yeah, I mean, like I said, the one that jumps out to me is I would put a trigger warning out for that first scene. It includes graphic description of whipping... of racial violence. I think that one I would definitely, if I were writing a trigger warning, I would put the first scene in there. That someone says, I don't know that I want to read about someone being almost whipped to death because they're Native American and dared look at a white lady. Or at least I want to skip past.