80s Ladies Romance
From clinch covers to monster lovers, we love romance.
80s Ladies Romance
Interview with Jen Prokop from Fated Mates
Shanna, the generational divide in romance, how to support romance in this time of assault on civil rights, and why 18-year-old boys are not good book boyfriends.
Thank you so much, Jennifer Proko, for joining us. Of course. And she's from, of course, everybody knows Fated Mates. Is there anybody that doesn't know? I don't think so. Well,
SPEAKER_04:you'd be surprised. I mean, you know, I mean, if you're a romance reader, but not a podcast listener, like somebody has to tell you,
SPEAKER_00:right? You just had a big show in New York and you had a couple of big events, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, like we've had usually that was last spring. We had like Faded Mates Live. And then it's also really fun. Occasionally I'll do things like this or I live in Chicago. And so sometimes there are local like events at romance bookstores where people are doing like a panel and I'm there or whatever. So yeah, so it's really fun to meet people in real life or like talk to different groups of people.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's super exciting. I had no idea. So in Chicago, they have entire stores that are just romance books. Like here in the Phoenix area, we have the Poison Pen in Scottsdale, which is just mystery, but I don't think we have anything that's devoted to romance.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So there are quite a few of them now, right? The first one was the Ripped Bodice in LA, and then they opened up a Brooklyn branch. There are two here in Chicago, one in the South suburbs called Love Sweet Arrow, and then another one in the, like kind of more in the city, closer to me called, I think it's called The Last Chapter. And there are quite a few, like probably for you all, the closest one, maybe it would be in San Diego. There's the Meet Cute Bookshop. So yeah, now I just would tell everybody if you're traveling anywhere, like it might be really fun to check out because it is really fun to go into a bookstore that has all romance, right? So they
SPEAKER_00:have the used ones and they're like a selection.
SPEAKER_04:It depends. Like different stores have a different thing. Right. So Love Sweet Arrow, which is the one that was like the first one here in the Chicago area, has like front list in the front room and then like kind of had like a used book section in the back room. Then they moved to a new store and I don't remember how it's set up now. So it just depends on like the store, I think, and how much room they have. So.
SPEAKER_00:You made a list. Didn't you make a map?
SPEAKER_04:There is, but now I feel like it's out of date and we haven't, I haven't really kind of figured out how to update it, but there are, I think the best thing to do now is probably there's like bookstore romance day every fall. And the woman who runs that I think probably has like the best list of like, what are the romance bookstores and then just independent bookstores that sell romance.
UNKNOWN:Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:One day they're going to come back. I just saw a review on Goodreads. I was looking up. I like to look up Goodreads, you know, one-star reviews. I go up, I start from one and I go up to the five. And I'm like, I got to see what the range is here. And somebody was saying from Shana, I sold just like me. I don't do this. I sold when I got married. I gave away all my romance books.
SPEAKER_04:I know. Or, you know, honestly, though, if you're looking for a specific book, like one book, right? Like I remember this one and eBay is probably your best bet because, yeah. And I think the thing about eBay that can be an advantage is you can actually, usually there's pictures, right? And so like with thrift books, you're kind of like, okay, you have the book I want, but do you have the cover I remember? And
SPEAKER_00:that's the big thing with romance, vintage romance, because some of them have new covers and you want the original covers if you're going to get the book.
SPEAKER_04:Right. So if that's part of like why you're interested in finding that original one, then I would recommend eBay because then at least people take pictures and you can see like, oh, yeah, this is the one I wanted.
SPEAKER_00:Well, speaking of the vintage books, I was stunned that you did not. You've never you didn't read this at 12 years old like everybody else. So I
SPEAKER_04:you know, it's funny. So I came to romance when I was, you know, like a teenager, a young teenager. But I started out reading category romance books. So, like, my first romances were, like, Harlequin Presents, and there was, like, a line called, like, Candlelight Ecstasy and Love Swept, right? And now, I loved historical romance, too, but I would say that I, like, I read Julie Garwood. I read Judith McNaught, right? Like, so sort of, like, the stuff that was, like, new at that time. I've never read The Flame and the Flower, for example. So...
SPEAKER_00:Kathleen was, you know, she, I like some things about her books are great, but there's a lot that is, I mean, I love her. I love this book for the nostalgia most in many ways. So I think a lot of people, it's like their first book or the first one they remember. Right. But it's, and it could be a fantastic story. Funny, but it will trivia fact. I don't know. Maybe you heard that. She was, Kathleen Wood was offered a movie deal for Shana and she turned it down because she refused to shorten it. I
SPEAKER_04:mean, it does seem to be a rather long book. Well, it is
SPEAKER_00:way
SPEAKER_04:too long. So before we talk about the book, I wanted to mention that we, so we had a woman on Faded Maze named Elda Minger. We were interviewing her because as far as we could tell, she was the first romance author to put condoms on Paige. in a Harlequin American romance. I can't remember the title of it right now. And so we had her on and we were sort of just like when we ask people kind of like, what was your journey to romance? And she tells this really fantastic story. I can send it to you guys when we're done, the link to the whole episode where she talks about, she was working at a bookstore in, I think, Ohio or Indiana, Illinois, somewhere in the Midwest where she grew up. And she Her boss was like, okay, tomorrow it's all hands on deck. And she was like, why? What's happening? And it was that Shana was going to be on sale. And she tells the story of having no idea what this book was. But like her manager was like, we're not even going to put stickers on the book. You have to memorize the skew. There's going to be a million people in here, women all day long buying this book. And she was like, I was so curious that she basically bought one for herself before they sold out. Because she's like, I knew we were going to sell out. And she's like, because I was like, I have to know what this is all about. And so this was her first romance. And so she's like, I took it home. I mean, and she's like, I was asking people like, what is this? What is going on? And it's a really amazing story because you just sort of forget that like, I mean, this would have been my mom's generation, that these books were like truly revolutionary, right? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I was, I know I was 12, I think, because I was, I remember getting in trouble in sixth grade. I was in Sister Mary Louise called my mom to tell her I had this book in my desk. First of all, 12, can you imagine a 12 year old? My mom was a nurse, but she's a person could not bear to talk to me about my period when I got, I mean, she could not. So Sister Mary Louise calls her and she's like, okay, I mean, absolutely nothing happened with that. I couldn't bring it. But that's what I remember. It's like your first time, your first romance novel, because it was so huge in your mind.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's Shana's
SPEAKER_03:first
SPEAKER_04:time too. Go ahead, Monica.
SPEAKER_00:I was going to
SPEAKER_03:say, I did not read this book when I was a kid. I did read some of the historicals. That's how I, I mean, I read the Harlequins too. I can't remember which specifically, but you know, obviously we've already discussed this once on our podcast and Pam knows this. I couldn't finish Shana. I did not like the book. And I'll be interested to hear kind of your thoughts because while I got my start reading historical romances, and I certainly can understand the context in which they were written, the time in which they were written, things like that, it's difficult for me to completely take away my contemporary viewpoint. And the reason I find it really interesting is, for example, when you talk about this author that you interviewed who was the first one to mention condoms. I find these days that even in something that's taking place in history where they're not going to have a package of Trojans, I can't help but think, why wasn't there a discussion of birth control? What's going to happen here? So I'm interested to hear your perspective on avoiding getting distracted by a contemporary lens when you read a historical romance. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, and I think the thing that's interesting is there are a lot of historical romances that do talk about it. It's just, they're talking about, we had an episode, like, tinctures and tonics and pulling out and, right? Because, like, when you learn, like, what it really took to, like, use a French letter, like, a lot of effort and pre-planning, everybody. Right. Right? I mean, you had to, like, soak that fucker for, like, all day, apparently. I had no idea. So... And not income, right? Like, anyway. So I do think that that's like a real issue. And I think that's why, like, when I look back, you know, here's what I will say. Like, I think we have this capacity all the time when we're like watching old episodes of Friends, which is like incredibly homophobic, right? Yes. Perfect example. Devastatingly fatphobic, right? Like, and yet we are able to sort of like put on our like, okay, Shit like that was just on TV back then, but it was the 90s. You know what I mean? It wasn't like it was that long ago. Right. I mean, for us. And so I think part of it is one of my theories is that just like it's a harder muscle to like flex when it's a book because it's in your head in a different way. You can kind of just like look away from the TV or like walk out of the room for that scene or fast forward through it. So I think part of it is like we have that capacity. So I think you just have to come to these books like kind of with the same thing and and one of the things that's been really interesting to me is readers who are older than me sort of say that like you know they were raised at a time and I think listen we have a lot of young women currently being raised with this mindset which is you're only supposed to have sex with your husband and you know you're not really supposed to like it right right and I think Like, I mean, think about what abstinence-only education is really teaching people,
SPEAKER_03:right? I like to say that people think it's sex for procreation, not recreation.
SPEAKER_04:Correct, right? And so one of the things that I've had older readers than me say is, right, because Pam, you read this book when you were 12, but it was probably 10 years old at that point in time, if not older, right? Like, it wasn't like a new book.
SPEAKER_01:Right, mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:The people who are reading it contemporaneously, right, like I was in my 20s and I was reading this book or I was in my 30s and reading this book when it came out, have sort of said that like the whole idea of him, the hero kind of like not raping her exactly, but like being very assertive and forceful about sex. And then she could like it because it really wasn't her doing anything. I have had a lot of women say... You're talking in general now, right? Yeah, I'm talking in general. I'm not talking about the character. I've had a lot of women who are readers say there was something very powerful in that for me. Because it felt like if you didn't have to make the decision to do it, you could at least enjoy it. Whereas if you had to make the decision to do it, it automatically meant you were bad, right? Oh, yeah. Does that make sense? So I just think it's really interesting to think about The way to get past, like, maybe your contemporary mindset is to think, who was the ideal reader in, what was this, 1974? Is that correct? I think that's correct.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, 72. 72
SPEAKER_04:or 74, right?
SPEAKER_00:No, that was Flaming the Flower. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So that's, I don't know. It's just like a really interesting. And also just listen, this is a time when, well, it's really interesting going back to Elda Minger, right, who are our author. I also had a hard time with Shanna. Like I was kind of like, are you kidding me? Like she's going to blackmail this guy into marrying her, right? So she can get one over on her dad. But like Elda was like, I loved her. I also had a really hard like relationship with my father who thought he got to tell me what to do with my life. And I was like, oh, I guess so. Whereas I was like, this is crazy, right? Cause I never had that. Or I was very young when I was like, it's my life. Right. So I thought that was a really interesting too. When I relistened to it this morning before we got on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And we write, we, we make them our own. When we read, we are making our own movies in our head. I mean, I don't touch on how many times the hero that I read or the main character. No, I mean, is a completely different physical description in my head. Yeah. than what the author has put down. And my mind just skips over it because I read about him and I have a vision in my head and that's it. It's like he could be different hair color, different, completely everything. Right.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I would say I, and I'll be interested, Monica and Pam, to hear how far you got. I mean, I only read the first three chapters, like that first 70 pages.
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:I have a feeling I would time out when she gets to this, like, Caribbean island. Like, I think the colonization factor would be, whoa, I can see it coming. And I'm kind of like, I'm not sure I want anything to do with that. So it's interesting, too. Like, I find myself, myself as a reader, like, very sympathetic to what the lives of women must have—white women, probably, if I'm being honest, right— as readers must have been like at that time, but sort of like the racism, homophobia, fat phobia, the things that still kind of hurt a little. You know what I mean? I feel those would be ones where I was like, whoa, right? We read Gentle Rogue, and I was like, oh, okay, so he's like a full-on colonizer, you guys. It's a
SPEAKER_03:lot. It's just a lot. I was going to say, you bring up an interesting point about the fact that Shana comes in and she's going to bribe this guy in prison to defy her father. And I think that's interesting because I wonder if that was appealing to the readers of the time who didn't feel like they had sexual agency, but saw Shana taking control of her life against her father as a way that they could relate to, especially in the 70s and feminism and women starting to have more opportunities. I wonder if that was one of those things like, well, I can't be the boss in the bedroom, but I can relate to this woman who is trying to take a stand against her asshole dad.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Like, I'm going to be in charge of my life, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's a plot point that was incredibly weak, I thought, because what's to stop this? She's married to him from a date. He wanted her to get married, allegedly, to give him an air. And she comes home and says, well, we were married for a day and he died. Sorry. And he's just going to, he wants to stop him from being like, well, I've got to back up. You're, you know, I mean, that didn't make sense. Yeah. But also, and Kathleen Ortiz was a conservative. You can see it in her writing. She was a super Republican conservative. Yeah. Well,
SPEAKER_04:I
SPEAKER_00:mean,
SPEAKER_04:I think that it's also, so I will tell you what I was really fascinated by in the book. I was really fascinated by the role of like the servant, her kind of bodyguard guy. What was his name? Pitney. Pitney, Pitney. I was like, Pitney, Pitney. Because I was like, he's really her, he cares about her, right? And it's also really interesting because the other thing I spent a lot more time thinking about was if this book was written down, I mean, it wouldn't be probably, but if it was, It would be like her point of view, his point of view. And so like that, those sort of insights from tertiary characters just doesn't really happen that often anymore. And I really liked it because it would be very easy to see him as just her father's like lackey, right? He's just there to enforce what the father wants. But you really get that he truly... Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Only her maid. Yeah, no. Right? Later on, she has a maid, but there's no mother, sister. No mother,
SPEAKER_04:no sisters, no cousins, no friends. These are like women on their own in a man's world. And that was super, super common. Even all of Julie Garwood, a lot of it was like that, right? You know, it's just like, this is your lot. Like, I mean, a lot of Joanna Lindsay was like that. It was like... And honestly, what is interesting to me is... I think a lot of romantasy is like that. These books that are so popular now are really, in some ways, hearkening back to that, like, you're one beautiful, perfect baby girl, and your job is to be perfect and beautiful, and all the men will admire you. You know what I mean? It's very interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Ultimately, what made me not finish, Shaina, was... wasn't that I couldn't take off my contemporary lens. It was that I really hated Shana, that I could not understand why this guy would be falling over himself for this brat. She was just a petulant idiot. Her tits, Monica. It was her tits. I mean, and I guess that must be it, man. She must have had a golden pussy or something, but oh, I could not get past that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, her, I was really interested in The other thing I was really interested in was just like the writing itself, which I actually liked. I'm not saying that in a bad way, but it was just like far more. There was like a lot more of like the world, right? We're going to describe this. Yes. The carriage. We're going to describe the people who were watching the wedding take place. We're going to describe the little inn you stopped at, right? Yeah. And like the part where like she gets caught on his, you guys, if you could see me right now, I'm like, like acting out the part where her like dress gets caught on his button or whatever. And then like rips away. And I was like, the description of her breasts was like, honestly, super intense. And I'm not sure in a good way. It just felt like I'm so used to thinking of romances being about the female gaze. And I was like, that's not what's happening here. It really isn't. It was very much rooted in his point of view. And like the description of her at that moment felt I had a really hard time with it as well. So.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But Burke is like the perfect guy. He's too perfect. He's got no flaws. He's good at everything. He is a murderer in jail, Pam. I
SPEAKER_02:just wanted him to have something.
SPEAKER_03:I was saying, Rourke is your ultimate book boyfriend. Like, he's your guy, right? Out of all the books, he's your book boyfriend. Who, me?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, almost. I mean, he's very close, but he's too perfect. Very close. But I like Colt Thunder. I like Rourke Beauchamp and Colt Thunder from Savage, you know. I like, you know, a little bit of, but Rourke is, yeah. But interestingly enough. It's okay. No judgment. I have known guys in real life, though, like that, that just We're obsessed with this complete bitch that never gave him the time of day. So it is a phenomenon. But this book, I heard, was based on, somebody said she lifted it. Well, she probably heavily imitated it. It was a book called Lord Johnny that was written in the 50s by a guy. And it's almost the same exact plot, except it's flipped from the guy's perspective. It's all about him. And there's like almost no sex or romance. It's there, but the same deal. He goes to the jail, death row, makes him the offer. And everyone loved it because they loved the swashbuckling and the adventure stuff, but flipped from the guy and that part. which I thought was interesting. So you don't know about the part where she sends him to the pirate island to die? I don't. I'm sorry. I'm
SPEAKER_03:not mad about it, but I don't. I didn't make it that far either. And I was even listening to it. I was listening to it and I still couldn't
SPEAKER_04:make it. I mean, it is almost 700 pages. Like this is like Kindle Unlimited length, everybody.
SPEAKER_00:Well, the thing that I know people love it. The thing that I... it gets me about this book is a lot of people that don't have a nostalgia attachment to it, or just coming to it. I look on Goodreads and they'll say, they immediately say, Oh, I DNF this book. Cause he raped her in the first, you know, right. And I'm like,
SPEAKER_04:yeah,
SPEAKER_00:that's like, I think this is an instance of that's an unfair, like knee jerk reaction because they had a deal and that was the deal. And she completely lied about it. And yeah, that was the nature of the deal. It's not like he bought her dinner and he expected something from her in the end. He was upfront with, you want something important to you. And this is, my name is equally important to me. And this is the price. And he made a good, it even says in there that she liked it, you know?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, that's back to that, like part I was talking about, right? Like, she's like, I don't want this. But then like, once it's happening, she's like,
SPEAKER_05:yeah,
SPEAKER_04:it's kind of, I am liking it, right? It's, I was interesting to me that they get interrupted, right? The way that
SPEAKER_00:that happened. Right at the time that they did.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Right. And I think that also, I was very interested in how uninterested the book was in exploring, like what it would have been like for him to be in that cell for however long. Right. Like, I guess he gets out and there's the part where she, like that maid is shaving him and he's like happy to be taking a bath or whatever. But, And this makes sense, right? Like, people didn't know anything about, like, trauma, right? Like, Kathleen E. Woody was not like, let me talk about the PTSD he would have from being in solitary
SPEAKER_00:confinement. Well, it's not like he was held for 8,000 years by a demon and had to chew up his own leg to get
SPEAKER_03:out. True, true, true, right? I also think it's part of the time because even if we knew about trauma, certainly a 1970s, you know, a 1970s man, even if she were writing a contemporary, He wasn't going to show it. He wasn't going to talk about his feelings and go about it in a healthy manner. It was, you know, suck it up, be a man, move on, and be a pirate.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I was really interested in that. And I think this is why, like, Monica, I had a hard time with Shana. Like, she was so, like, it was interesting the way that she, like, treated him. Like, kind of like, how dare? Like, how dare? And I was like, well... don't you have even like a moment's worth of empathy for what this man has gone through? Right. Or like, yeah, you know? Yeah. And I think it's really interesting though, because I do think that the book goes pretty hard to sort of explain why she might be like that. Right. And I thought it was really interesting that there was this kind of throwaway line at one point about how her mother used to be the one who would like litigate the, you know, essentially between her and her father. Right. Their mother was the one who could, like, calm things down. And once her mother had died, there was no one to play that role. And I think it's then really interesting that, like, you know, she's to us now, like a kid. She was 20. Right. Right? Of course she's a brat. She's a wealthy, very wealthy young woman. A beautiful one. And so I found myself wondering, like, what is The ending for her. You know what I mean? Well, I don't know if you want to spoil it for your listeners, but yes, I'm curious.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, she is basically an astronomical bitch throughout the book until the end, the very end. And then she has to change her heart. She grows up. She has a baby. She gets pregnant and, you know, she becomes a mature adult. Sure. In the last, like, two chapters.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The Scarlet O'Hara. The Scarlet O'Hara method. Well, they're on the island. So at one point, you know, she sends him back to prison. And he gets, as luck would have it, taken back to the plantation anywhere where they live because her father hires bond servants, aka, you know, we'll call them bond servants. Yes. lets them work off their debt. So this guy comes and picks them up and brings them, ships them back. So he got on this boat ride and like stocks are there until they develop their romance. So in the middle of that whole development, at one point she gets mad at him because she's jealous because she thinks he was stepping out on her while she's not giving him any. Right. And she has Pitney who, knock them out and put them on a boat that like a pirates, like they just take them. So somehow the way that plays out is she winds up on the boat with them. Ha ha. Right. Yeah. Great. But how do you get past that? Like, how do you wind up in love with somebody who like sends you off to die? Right. Right. She didn't even know what happened to him, but she winds up there. So on this, while they're on this Island, she had to like learn some things there, which she deserved. But, and he gave her, he gave her a couple of big speeches of like, you think, listen, I've had it. You think you're God's gifts to women. You think you are, you think I would have picked you if I had any, you know, and she's like, he just like dressed her down. So there was a couple of really good, Would have been really great if he had followed through on it. Yeah. He just kept up with her. But it was really nice. It was refreshing at that point, at least here. Yeah. Because it was just really brutally worded, like you would have real dialogue, like you would have really said to somebody, you know, like. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and that is an interesting, like, have you ever read A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught? Remember this one? I don't think so. There's a very similar, I think, vibe where like and it's just different now. Like age gap is different now. Right. Like so I think that's the other thing that's interesting. So it's like, you know, she's 20 and he's a grown man, like a grown ass man. And, you know, they're these young girls are like selfish and silly and reckless and careless. Right. They're all Daisy Buchanan. And then what happens is at some point. you know, he's just desperately in love with her anyway. And it's kind of always like her beauty plus her moxie, for lack
SPEAKER_03:of a
SPEAKER_04:better word.
SPEAKER_03:I was going to say pluckiness. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good word for it.
SPEAKER_04:And then it's like, there's a point where basically they get like a grow up speech, like grow up. You want to be an adult? Grow up. Right. And I think it's really interesting that this was like, if you think about it broadly, like, is this what I mean, probably what marriage was like for a lot of these young women, right? You went
SPEAKER_00:right from the family home. They had credit cards or bank accounts.
SPEAKER_04:Right. You had limited job opportunities. You could be a nurse or a teacher or whatever. And so I do think it's like interesting that the arc of these stories for these young heroines is like becoming an adult. Not like becoming an equal partner in your relationship with this man, but like becoming an adult. Mm hmm. So but again, that was the time, I think.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I guess I sometimes I'm a little bit bothered by the fact that I feel like sometimes what makes these women, quote unquote, become an adult is having a child. I'm like, oh, there. Oh, yeah. There's the patriarchy. Like, there's your your purpose in life. You finally got knocked up again. That's part of that contemporary lens applied to these stories. And yeah. But, you know, you've brought up some really good points. I need to put myself more in the shoes of the author and what her lived experience would have been as she was creating this story.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Like, right. Like, what's it speaking to? And I mean, and that's it. It's like now being a mother doesn't make you a woman. Right. Like, we wouldn't say that. That's insanity. Well, and people put off being a mother so much longer. Right. I mean, you know, I remember, I mean, my mom had all of us by the time she was 26. I have two brothers. Right. OK. I mean, I had one when I was 30, but a lot of people now are having kids closer to 40. Yes. So I think we can't say anymore like, oh, yes, here's what will turn you into a woman. You will get married and have kids and you can't be the baby once there is a baby. So now you're grown up. Right. But yeah, I think
SPEAKER_00:it's something else, too, because plus, if you want to see older women heroines who can't have babies, it's like what? What else?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or a romance that's not, you know, like a life story, like a romance novel for an older woman. That's not even going to be an issue. So what could you do? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So, I mean, I think it's, I think it also, like, I think so for me, it's also, like, you can read older books like this and think, we've come a long way, baby. Literally, right? Like, I know they're trying to push us back, but I also think, and it's really interesting that we're talking about this because I, of course, had not read that far, is like, this would have also been happening right when Roe v. Wade was. Yeah. Coming. Yeah. Being decided. Yeah. Yeah. And when you think about, you know, and Pam had talked about like Kathleen E. Woody was being a conservative. And I mean, I think a lot of romance is like small C conservative. It's about making families and being right. Like, like the family unit at some level.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And so it's interesting to me though, to think that, just as women were getting the right over their own bodies in one way, a lot of these books are instead really reinforcing the idea that, no, it's having a baby that makes you a fully realized adult. And that's not true for Rourke, right? It's true for Shana.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, true. And at one point they go back to America and they meet his family. He's got an all-American nice family and it's actually, it's really nice scenes there, but, you know, they're just a wholesome family tight-knit, you know, honorable family.
SPEAKER_04:Sure. Do you think that some of the appeal of the plot then is like the globe hopping? I do. Which would have been very different to do in the 70s, presumably,
SPEAKER_00:right? The adventure is a part of it. She took it too far. She really made it repetitive. She needed to cut like a chunk of this book because she repeated this adventure, the same thing too many times. But... The element itself is, that's why we love, Monica and I both really like Savage Slender, part of it for that adventure factor. So I think that is great in a romance where they're some kind of adventure. In the Bodice Rippers, a lot of it was travel. They did end up going around the globe or on ships or whatever across the country. Well, and I
SPEAKER_04:think that would have also been, I mean, I'm like really trying to think and I don't know the answer to this. I'd have to ask my mom. I wonder if that's like something that like men got to do on their own, but women could only really do with a husband.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. A lot of them were home at the time doing line. You know, I mean, that was there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So I think the appeal of like, you're going to travel the world. You're going to see the whole world. I think is probably another really big part of this. That's like harder for us to maybe rep or it doesn't seem as like big of a deal anymore. Maybe for some people.
SPEAKER_00:Now we have billionaires who are going to pay her mortgage. Sure. Well,
SPEAKER_03:and you know, this is maybe not a good example. One of my passions is I love to listen to old time radio and they talk about how some of these old time radio, they go to these exotic places and that the listeners at the time They'd never been to those places. They hadn't seen pictures of those places. It was very exciting. Now, obviously, in the 70s, people traveled more than during the golden age of radios, the 30s, 40s, early 50s. But to your point, a lot of these women, they didn't have those cruise ships now where you see like 26 countries in seven days or whatever. Right, right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so it is interesting to think about Right. Cause I had not real, I mean, if they're starting at Newgate, it's in England, they're on the, you know, going up and down to get married or whatever. Like they, you know, they go to this Island, they go to America. I mean, that's pretty extensive. And I do think that that would be a really, I do think, like you said, that's, listen, the appeal of the billionaire romance is very similar, right? Like you'll see the world, you wouldn't have to worry about money. And I don't think it's, they make such an, it's really interesting. It's like, Okay, if we're talking about like, okay, Shana, like the whole idea is like this man is going to maybe push you to have sex, but you're going to like it in the end. One of the things about these billionaire romances that feels almost like similar in a weird way is every single one of these heroines, if it's like a Right. A woman and a man like he's the billionaire always. Right. Is she's like it's a very clear she's not a gold digger. She's not after him for his money. That's just like a coincidence. In fact, you know, she won't even let him pay for whatever. And
SPEAKER_00:I feel like even though she's homeless and starving, she's not like I
SPEAKER_04:have my pride. Right. And I do feel like there is a way in which that. strikes some sort of similar chord in me, right? Like that's not what you're in it for. But if I guess he's going to pay your fucking mortgage or he's going to, you're going to have sex in the carriage, you're just going to have to lay back and think of England. I don't know. Right? Yeah. So I do think there's like similar ways in which when we get like the most powerful elements of the patriarchy and romance, often the, like the woman is kind of like, if I must. Right? Yeah. if I must, I can potentially enjoy some of this, but it wasn't really why I was here. Right. And that's interesting to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, that is true. Yeah. I am super, you know, modern liberal minded about sex stuff, but I can tell you there's been a couple of contemporary books I've read lately where the only a couple where the heroine was very sexually forward and She was out there doing, you know, like, you're not my first. I'm doing all this stuff. She's not shy. She's not virginal. And I was a little bit jarred. I'm like, and for me, I mean, I'm not someone that judges that kind of thing. And I was like, this is a little bit weird because even now that's just.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Romance is very conservative that way. Right. It really is. And that's what's hard. Cause I, well, I mean, yeah,
SPEAKER_03:that's true. Cause I read one recently and this is not the exact same, but in terms of, I was raised in a small C conservative family. I was like the lone liberal. They were like, I don't know where you came from. But I read a contemporary recently and it took place in a high school. And these kids were like seven. I don't think he might have been 18. She might have turned 18. But I'm pretty sure when it started, they were like 17. And it was very explicit. And she was very much as intuitive. And I struggled a little bit with that. And I don't know if that's because I am a parent of children who are about that age or my upbringing or what. But I was like, ooh. And again, I'm not king shaming. You know, I finished the book. But I was like, this is a little hard for me.
SPEAKER_00:For me, every all the teenagers had to. I was very young. Everybody in my high school that I know was having fucking each other. So, I mean, like rabbits. So, I mean, to me, that's that's just like normal. When Monica was saying that's not my story, I was like, what?
SPEAKER_04:Right. Really? Really? I you know what it is for me? Those it's not that I I actually always really appreciate when people. in romance have like that background. Like, yeah, I was having sex in high school or whatever. It's in these books where they're like, you know, Gods of fucking. And I'm like, come on. Yes. 18-year-old boys. They don't care. They don't care about anything. You know what I mean? That's the part that always seems like this young person needs a lot of practice before I'm
SPEAKER_03:going to accept that they are. Right. You read those scenes and you're like, that went on a good four minutes and 30 seconds longer than it would have. Like, without question.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm telling you, there was a reverse age gap one that I read. And, you know, they can't make older women heroines. So in order to keep her age to teacher, in order to make this a reverse age gap, he was 18 and he was like her. No,
SPEAKER_04:no.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm like, well, he's bossing her around. And this kid is 18 year old.
SPEAKER_04:I'm like, I can't teach her student is no problem. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But and a dom, you know?
SPEAKER_04:No,
SPEAKER_00:absolutely ridiculous.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:right. They're like, come on, they can't even clean the B off the C. Just make her old enough to have a relationship with somebody who's not a child.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, and so like the thing, going back to Shana or Shana, however we're saying her name, I actually don't know if I'm saying it correctly. I
SPEAKER_00:say Shana, but I know everybody does it differently.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I think the other thing that was like really interesting to me about the book, about like, you know, like kind of that first part that I read was I kept thinking like, how did he get out of Newgate for like a night? You know what I mean? Like, like I really, when it first started and she was in his cell or whatever, I was like, wait, are they going to get married inside the prison? Right.
SPEAKER_02:What's about to happen? They paid the guard.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But it was like the thing that is so crazy about it is, and this is to me was probably the unforgivable part. Like back to Monica's point of view here is they could have just let him go. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. She didn't even let him make a run for it. That's what pissed him off.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Like I kept thinking, okay, so you're going to obviously not forgive. You know, you're going to break this deal or whatever. But you could have just let him go. Like that man. Or am I to believe that Newgate has like the best recording of prisoner? You know what I mean? Like that guy could have been like, I don't even think anyone would have cared. And I did find myself thinking that to me seemed quite unforgivable. Like not the breaking of the. like her word, but like sending him back. Why didn't you just
SPEAKER_00:let him go? Especially him, all cleaned up and hot and everything. I mean, he's not like some ogre.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Give him a bag of money and say, we'll say that you hit us over the head and ran away. You
SPEAKER_00:know what I mean? I guess there would
SPEAKER_04:not be a story then, but I
SPEAKER_00:really did find myself. Then he would have been like, hi, I'm coming back. He comes back and stuff on his ear. He's like, I thought you were, you know, that's a story.
SPEAKER_04:That is, yeah, that's true. So I did find myself really, really pretty shocked that that was how it turned back out. That they're like, yeah, you're going back to jail now. Like, that's so messed up.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I was furious at her at that point. She's just a terrible person.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's why these people that, I think, you know, well, there's a whole other topic about the rape fantasy stuff and the rape stuff and how, you know, I think a lot of people on Goodreads, you know, they'll just jump knee-jerk and just throw that out there without thinking about anything, you know, and they talk about safety and it's, you can't do that. You have to have the context of the story, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think that, and the context of the time, right? I mean, I'm not, I'm not defending it. I am saying like, I understand it, I guess is what I'd say, right? I didn't enjoy it necessarily. I wasn't like, you go, man. But I was like, it's really interesting though, because like Catherine Coulter is I think was more on this side was writing plots like this. Julie Garwood was not. Right. And I did find myself thinking about like that teenage reading, like the authors I was more drawn to. And I just found myself wondering, like, maybe that just wasn't for me even back then. Right. I mean, I'm sure I must have read books where I was like, man, this isn't my author. But like, you know what I mean? So I think the other thing is, I think there was even at the time a great diversity in the kind of stories that were being told.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there was. That's a good point. Yeah. There's a lot of books that I didn't keep that, you know, I curated. The collection that I saved through the years was just my, I read the same handful of Avon authors or, you know, I mean, there was a lot of books that I would pick up and be like, I don't want to read that one at the time, you know, back in the day. So I know I wouldn't like them now. I pick them up now. I'm collecting them now because I'm writing about it and I'm like, oh my God, some of them are great. I mean, I'm the one on the camp where anything goes and I defend a lot of stuff, but then I'll pick up some of these and I'm like, holy cow.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And so part of me is like, I think it's also really interesting because I find myself thinking a lot about like, who are the authors that, like I read, what I remember is I love Julie Garwood and I love Jude Devereaux. Did you guys read Jude Devereaux?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I did. I couldn't tell you what I read, but I definitely
SPEAKER_04:read her stuff. I like really remember loving her, but like she doesn't, I've never revisited her the way I have with like Julie Garwood. I reread Julie Garwood still routinely and reread her
SPEAKER_00:a lot. How many authors do you do? Because I find there's like three or four. There's only a handful of authors that I still read over and over through the years.
SPEAKER_04:I reread a lot of Lisa Kleypas. I'm a big, you know what it is, y'all? I'm a scene rereader, right? Meaning I'm not rereading whole books, but I like will read that one scene where like whatever shit goes down. over and over again. And
SPEAKER_03:that is so the beauty of like an e-reader because, you know, search and find. And now I know exactly what, I just got to pick the right keyword. And now I found that scene.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, correct. Correct. So I guess I would say it is hard. Then I'm surprised at things where I'm like, I love this book. This is my favorite. And I'll never have any urge to read it again. And a book that I thought for whatever reason was just It's fine. Will be one that I will find myself rereading. So I feel like the thing about romance, too, is you don't really know what you love for five years. That's my theory. That's true. Right? Yeah. So, Monica, how far did you read in Shana, then? Like, did you...
SPEAKER_03:I made it to, I think, just before he goes on to the pirate boat. Like, they were in the Caribbean, and he's flirting with the local... you know, local girl, the baker's daughter or whoever she was.
SPEAKER_00:Fishmonger's daughter.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I was just, I was at that point, I was like, she is so annoying. I just, I can't go on. Yeah. You know, and I also think that my reading appetite has gotten so much shorter. When I was 18, a teen, it was nothing for me to read 600 pages, 800 pages. I mean, I'm a horror fan. I loved Stephen King, all those long ones. And now I'm like, oh God, it's 300 pages and it's even an audio book and I'm still struggling.
SPEAKER_04:Well, there's also a lot more competition for our time, right? I mean, think about like there was TV and books, board games and puzzles, but like You know, there's so much things now that you can be like, okay, do I want to read the 600 page book or do I want to go doom scroll or whatever? Yes.
SPEAKER_00:But do you think that romance novels would benefit from good authors making longer books? I mean, do you think it would help
SPEAKER_04:the story? You know what? Here's what I will say. One of the things that I actually think, okay, I'm not a runner. I'm going to say that. Somebody said something really interesting to me once and I have applied it to romance. which is this person was saying that they they love to run a half marathon. They're like, that's my that's my distance. And I was like, oh, like, right. Like, this is like the perfect distance for you to run. And I think that there are authors who have a distance, meaning like right. Like K.J. Charles writes a great book between like two hundred and twenty five and two hundred fifty pages. Like they are tight. They are perfect. And, you know, the same thing is true, I would say, for like Ruby Dixon. And then you read like a longer book by Ruby Dixon and you're like, it feels a little flabby. Right. And so I guess I would say, Pam, I don't I think there are authors who are writing long. I think there's a lot of long writing authors now on Kindle Unlimited because you're getting paid by the page read. That is a logical consequence. Right. I just want people to turn as many pages as they can. But I just think people should write the distance that's right for them. I don't know that longer books are better books necessarily. And sometimes when authors, you can see them forcing themselves to write longer and it feels like it doesn't work to me. I
SPEAKER_03:think it also depends on what type of reader you are. I don't mind formulas and tropes. And I'm the person who likes Hallmark movies and cozy mysteries and Murder, She Wrote because I know where it's going. It's predictable. And so for me, a long one, I might get bored. But for other people, yeah, they really do want the more exposition and descriptions of things that aren't maybe necessarily just related to the romance. I have a joke. I say that if I'm reading a book and nobody's murdered or has sex in the first hundred pages, I don't want to read it. You know, I'm just done. Yeah, right. You're like, I need something to happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And it's got to be wet. Fine.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:I appreciate that about you.
UNKNOWN:I do.
SPEAKER_00:So I have to wait till the 50% mark to see somebody kiss. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going
SPEAKER_04:there. Yeah. I do not enjoy a slow burn. I'm not interested. Right. I'm like, these are grownups. Like, right. Like, I think that's one of the things that I find right now is like, I feel like we, I'm not interested in virginity pretty much in any way anymore. I'm too old for that.
SPEAKER_00:Finding one without that these days.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and I think, I think in some ways we've gotten rid, I think that we have gotten away from that, especially in contemporary romance, right? Right. But I think what's weird about it, though, is it's like people still act like they are, right? Like, it still takes three-quarters of the book, and you're kind of like, these are grown people. Like, I just don't understand why they're letting a doorbell ringing disrupt them. Yes. But, you know, that's just me, and that's fine. So, you
SPEAKER_00:know. So you read romance, and you edit it, and... We've been doing it for a lot of years. So, I mean, we always hear so much about the negative, you know, the people don't like about the vintage romance, but is there, is there anything from those books that that era that is worth carrying over that would make our books better?
SPEAKER_04:Listen, I think the writing, I mean, there were times the writing felt a little too formal for me, but like the writing itself was great. Right. And sometimes I read books now and I'm like, Oh, come on, this is shitty writing. I know you're not supposed to say that, but sometimes the writing is bad. And I don't know if that's because people are working too fast. And I actually think that is what it is. But I also think that one of the things I, more than anything else, I'm a reader, right? And I'm reading a lot of different things. My primary fiction reading is romance. I read mysteries and thrillers. I read Don Fiction. Like, right, I read The New Yorker. I read my local neighborhood newspaper, right? And sometimes what I think more than anything else, though, is that what the books are suffering from now is like, if I've only read romances written in the past five years and all I read is that, if that, then the books are going to suffer for it, right? And I think one of the things about like just reading more is you're just going to get A different kind of idea. You're just going to get different idea. Authors will just get different ideas in the mix. Right. So, I mean, even like in this book, I was really interested in, like I said, the perspective of the secondary characters, but like at both the wedding and then also at the place they stopped for a meal. there was like an another couple there right like i thought it was it was far more forgiving of like secondary characters on page right there's other people here what are they doing what are they thinking are they observing the world felt really fully realized in a way i think a lot of current romances don't
SPEAKER_03:do you think and i liked it yeah because I feel like these days at a contemporary, if you have a secondary character and they spend any time with them, you know that they're setting them up for the next part in the series, right? It's like, oh, it's time for her. They're just introducing her because it's going to be her story next.
SPEAKER_04:Right. As opposed to just like, no, the world is full of fucking people.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know what I mean? And they might be watching you and having an opinion about what's going on, and you might not want them to be watching you, or you do, or you might be acting a certain way because they're here. And I thought that that was, I found myself thinking like, that's not a bad thing. Like I said, the world felt a far more full and interesting. And I don't know if I need 700 pages of it, but I did like it.
SPEAKER_00:But do you think that had to do with a lot of more third person POV
SPEAKER_04:back then? Yeah, I think probably, right? I also am on record pretty much everywhere. I really struggled with reading present tense. It's funny, a lot of people assume I mean first person. I'm like, no, I mean present tense. Because I think that, and look, there are authors who do this really well. But I think that one of the hallmarks of present tense is it like the immediacy of just like someone filtering instantaneously. But what you're then missing is like the retrospective ability to stop and be like, let me explain where we are. Like, right, let me describe. And, you know, the truth is when people stop and do that in present tense, I'm like, what's happening right now? You're in mid conversation and I'm supposed to read like two or three paragraphs about you describing what's going on. Like, how fast do you think? Right. Like, I literally have like cognitive dissonance when that happens. So, yeah, I do think probably it has to do with it being in third person versus first, because then the reader, I think. And don't get me wrong, Kathleen E. Woody was never even would have thought about writing a book in present tense like that was right. But yeah, there's no pressure to stop and think, what can my character be filtering through? They can just stop and be like, let me describe Newgate Prison to you.
SPEAKER_00:But also, there are details about how another person that they're interacting with, physical details that Right. Right.
SPEAKER_04:What is about to happen to me? I mean, and again, I'm not saying it's impossible because I think there are great people who are writing in present tense who I'm sure have found ways to do this that aren't going to feel right. I think I always want to be careful. One of my things, my most hated things is when people's primary attack against romance is that like it's bad writing. Because I feel like that's unfair. That is absolutely not true. So I also try to be really careful that I'm not just talking about like what bad writers do. But I think there is a lot of people writing really fast in romance. And when you're writing fast, something's got to give and probably it's your prose. You just can't polish it. It's the same way.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I mean, even Ruby Dixon said she wrote, she produces a lot because she writes like she doesn't have another job and she can write like 12, 14 hours a day, but she writes the kind of stories that can be written fast, you know? And you can't write a historical romance of any length in, you know, a month. Well. Yeah. Right. Like, I think
SPEAKER_04:it's, yeah. Right. Yeah. I think the other thing too, is I felt like I did find myself thinking that there was like a, probably a lot of research that she did. Right. You know, that description of Newgate to me felt very real.
SPEAKER_00:That was a pride of all those authors that are historical. I remember reading about how they did all this research.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And I think that's the other thing is like they're building the genre so that like the rest of us now, when you get a book that starts in Newgate, right? Like I just read a Julianne Long book I really liked that started in Newgate. She's in Newgate and actually her husband comes to get her. It's The Beast Takes a Bride. I loved it. But like I found myself thinking like when I was reading this, oh, like Julianne Long can kind of, I don't know, like assume we know what Newgate is because we've all read it. 50 books to start a new game. We've read The Highwaymen by Kerrigan Burn, and we've read this, right? So at some point, you can just sort of like romance readers plug into the shorthand.
SPEAKER_03:That's interesting that they kind of laid the foundation and have saved contemporary authors maybe some time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I guess we're not going to ask about the threads thing, right?
SPEAKER_04:What's the threads thing?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I was just going to say, you know, obviously in the past, I don't know. couple weeks. It's been a lot of people coming after romance, specifically smut from Moms for Liberty, not understanding that just because a book has cartoon cover doesn't mean you shouldn't do your job and look at what maybe your child is reading. Two, I don't remember the woman's name. She was a popular bookstagrammer who just really shit all over romance readers. And I'm interested in your take on a couple things about what does this say in our society about Is that type of book in trouble? Or the flip side that I saw someone say with regards to the books to grammar was, you know, romance readers are very passionate and they engage. And was this just, was it just clickbait? This girl got amazing engagement. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:right. I think it's probably both and, right? I would like to say, I think like the state of Oklahoma this week is going to be introducing a law that makes it essentially illegal to, have a book with pornography and that includes any book with sex on page. Wow. So there's romance. Oklahoma. No, but like all over Oklahoma or like the state of Oklahoma. Right. Wow. So, yeah. So you, that is real. Like the threat from book banning and the threat to romance, I do think is real. Right. Right. Because of these laws. And I think because of the, like the culture wars, you know, which Christian people, you know, Christofast just sort of seem to be winning right now. Yeah. So I, you know, now what will that actually mean? I don't know. Right. Does it mean that there's no Kindle store in Oklahoma anymore? Right. Like, I don't know that because one state passes a law like this, all of them will. But if this is a law that makes its way up through the Supreme Court, Right. And then the Supreme Court decides, oh, yeah, this is true. And they're going to enforce it nationwide. So like that. I mean, I think what we have learned in the past two weeks, Pam, is they can do whatever the fuck they want.
SPEAKER_03:They absolutely. So I haven't practiced in almost 20 years, but I am an attorney. So, of course, the first thing that pops into my head is I was like, well, that's an issue with interstate commerce. You know, can one state. But to your point. Yeah. I mean, it really depends if. The Supreme Court ends up saying, no, that's totally fine, and throws away years of jurisprudence regarding interstate commerce. Sure. I mean, look at Pornhub and Florida. Yeah, right. Now, Pornhub just basically said, we're just not going to be in your state.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we won't be in your state, right? Now, I think the thing that will be, and I think what you're then seeing is many romance readers right now are like, probably the safest thing to do right now is be buying your books and paper. Right. I mean, because that's the part, like, and that's the other thing, I guess there's no part of me that's really super worried about a world where romance doesn't exist because everyone can just come to my house. Like they're right. Like use bookstores still exist. These thousands and millions of these books are in print and in use bookstores. And like, they are not going to figure out a way to hopefully. Yeah. Right. Do that. They're
SPEAKER_03:not breaking down your door and literally burning your books.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. But will they, you know, they're looking to shutter libraries. They're successfully doing that in some places. They are looking to do this state by state. Now, how long will this last? I don't think it will last forever, right? I feel like it's going to be very hard to put that genie back in the bottle. But I do think that romance readers... would be smart to do a couple of things. One is like, like I said, if you can buy books in print, especially your favorites, right? If you can back up your digital book library and know how to do that, then do that. That one's a little trickier because of like DRM and all that stuff. I think that there are tutorials probably all over the internet that are like, here's how you strip the DRM off and do this. But I think more than anything else, like romance readers, I would recommend that you become local, like become active in your local school boards, in your local library boards, because they're fighting first about children's literature. But it will come for us. We're next. Right. And so. Even if it's sending an email or a letter to your local library saying, I'm a romance reader and I use your library and this is an important genre and there's nothing wrong with it. So please keep stocking it. We love what you do. Thanks. Because that is how your library can say to its board, look, here is our constituency here, the books they want to read. So
SPEAKER_00:that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_04:I'm going to do that today. Yeah. And those are things that are very low stakes, right? Everyone can do that. Everyone can say or go to your library and say, I'm a romance reader and I want every patron have the right to read. How can I support you? And then do what they tell you. That's a great idea. Yeah. And you're building community, right? You're talking to people. You're saying, I'm here for you. I'm not telling you what I think needs to happen. What do you, the person who works here, think needs to happen? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and you know, the last time our library had banned book week and they had a display, I actually checked out a few of those books, not because I wanted to read them per se, but because I wanted to show that people are checking these books out. You know, people want the book.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. So yeah, use your local library and tell them you support the freedom to read. That's what you can do.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So. That's amazing. Well, thanks for having me, you all. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03:I was going to say that's a perfect button. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I just want to say one positive, ask you for a positive that we spend so much time talking, we're hearing about negative things about romance. What is something that we love that is good about romance now today? I
SPEAKER_04:think the best thing about romance today is just how much bigger the pool is, right? Like, so it used to be that there was category and historical, right? And then by the nineties, there was like single title, but like, you can read anything you want now in romance, right? If you're like, I would like to read about, I don't know, a time-traveling hockey player, there is a book for you. Yes. And I think that that is what I love the best. It's just like, and because so many people are self-publishing, and look, that is both a blessing and a curse, but the blessing is like hearing from a lot of voices that maybe would not have made it through like whatever the gatekeeping is of traditional publishing. So I feel like for me, it's just really being able to find anything I want and really feel like any heat level, any type of story, any type of character, you know what I mean? It's all there. And I love that. That's great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for waking up so early for me because Sarah and I are recording later and I'm like... going to eat some lunch and then go do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yes. Thank you. So I always love talking to you. This was really great. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much.